TS Allen

I was in my 60th Foot (Royal Americans, not Rifles yet) uniform at a reenactment the other day and I finally found a good idea for an original impression. I had wandered into the Seminole camp to talk to a few friends and ended up talking with one of the fellows who presented me with a grand idea: find a (reproduction) set of clothes for the RM and RMLI agitators sent to Florida to extend the conflict between the US and the Seminole Indians. Allegedly, Baker and Enfield rifles were often seen among the Seminoles.

Most of the agitators which were sent in semi-officially by HM Government were young, 'detached' officers of the Royal Marines. I'm still waiting to pick up every book I have on the Seminole Wars, plus a few new ones, to comb throught looking for names and ranks and dates that I can use to try to get information from the RM museum (I'd think there is one).

But, in the mean time, I have a problem. I'll probably be wearing half-Indian dress, but, besides that, what would say, a British civilian in India or anywhere else in the tropics be wearing in this period? This is the 1830's and early '40's, which makes it even harder to figure out. I'd appreciate any assistance.

Actually, can I wear a pith helmet for the 1835-1842 period? If so, what type? Where do I get a reproduction?

~TS

I once met a fellow who had a story nearly this strange. Not going into details, he was in Indian before the war, spent a few months really early on in Egypt (transport left him off and with only a few brigades in all of North Africa they wouldn't let him leave) and then, if I remember correctly, was at Imphal. The only thing I found hard to beleive about it was that he was about Europe for the very end of the war. I can't remember what unit he was with, I think it was a group of Ghurkas. I do remember, though, that the first time I met him I also met his 'Batman.' Now, to call him a batman wouldn't really be correct, I guess they were Army buddies and they ended up together after the war. They would actually speak in some Indian language all the time, can't remember what it was. The Indian fellows name was Thaman something-or-another, which I think is Nepalese.

~TS

I'm curious, does anyone know about the cathedral where ADM William Pitt's half-armour is? I've been told it has his admiral's pennant and his armour, but, I've never been able to find out where the church is nor have I been able to locate a picture of it.

~TS

I'm pretty familiar with the equipments, although this is a nice picture.

What I'm looking for are the colours of the shoulder straps. Some other units wore other, minor, differentiations.

The other question, I know that Bavaria wore the M15 tunic with a collar in field grey, unlike the Prussian collar which was bottle green. Did Baden wear the grey or the green collars? I'm not sure if any other states adopted the M16.

EDIT: Left the page open, refreshed when I got home and didn't see the board. I appreciate you uploading that (and a nice board, as well). Also, on the postcard, are some of those men wearing the angled-cut M16? The one that cracked in the field? Sort of looks like it (although some later variants still looked pretty angular).

~TS

I'm curious, do you have information on what the uniform demarkings for that unit were? I'm doing some sketches for the diorama but all I know is that the Germans should have M15's.

~TS

I take forever to get pictures, so I can't really provide anything. Off the top of my head I've got I think six or seven, in varying styles (at least one is made in Japan, if I remember correctly). They're probably all in my closet or in storage, but I'll dig them out and describe them at first oppurtunity.

I'm curious, though, don't those over-sized Victorian sideburns protect the temples from the sun?

~TS

Happy to oblige.

Go to the bottom of the page and click on 'tropical helmets.' It has pictures of originals from the collection of Damien Doppler.

http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/

Question, since you apparently do know quite a bit about this helmet, is it meant to have such a wavy brim? Or is that warping over the years?

~TS

Leaves, probably laurel types. Dot at bottom of belt, where the two ends meet at the top, a small plain section.

~TS

The originals were sewn together from two tunic sleeves. By the era you're doing, I'm not sure if this was still done, but at least during Queen Anne's reign even a single sleeve would almost have been big enough. A friend of mine made his from his sleeve cuffs. Unfortuneately, most of our unit doesn't wear this type of cap so I don't have any pictures. Yours give a better idea of it, anyway.

~TS

Somewhere I've got an early forage cap for reenacting.

The original item wasn't really a nightcap, although it sometimes looked like one. It was either the inspiration for, or inspired by, the French bonnets de police (sic?), and was manufactured from two sleeves from coats. The buttons from the coats, with their tabs, would be used to hold over the top of the cap, making it look much like the coloured FS caps used during the Second World War in overall shape. I'll try to dig mine out an snap a few pictures.

~TS

It probably is. Although it looks rather new, it seems most examples of these went unissued. They're only worth about $30 anyway, they would require a bit too much work to be really worth faking. The thread is OD 7 though, which is interesting as OD 7 shouldn't be on a 1918 dated item.

~TS

My Dress Regulations for 1883, 1891 and 1900 all state that Lieutenants had a single pip, 2nd Lieutenants none and a Captain 2. My DRs for 1911 state 2nd Lt 1 star and a Lt 2 stars, Captains had 3.

Stuart

That's strange, I guess I'm confused or this is just a difference between dress and other regulations. In any event, I've never totally understand the 50 seeming methods of wearing pips in this era....

Thanks!!!!

~TS

One per shoulder. I know that early on this was the first lieutenants insignia with 2LT's having none. But if this tunic dates to 1881 I'm not sure if that is correct, I know the change was made during the initial stages of the Cardwell Reforms, along with getting rid of purchase of commisions and the rank of cornet (which has apparently returned, in any event).

~TS

Sadly, I've yet to find a name on the tunic. I'm going to take it down and take another look tonight. Out of curiousity, where would I acquire the Army lists? Considering the small size of the army there must have only been a limited number of 2LT's in the RE in 1881, and I'd always like to know what this fellow could have been up to.

The sash and belt is definately the same thing, I appreciate you finding that for me!!!! I don't have many references on Victorian uniforms so I'd never have found it on my own.

So, now I've explained the stable belt (which I'll for now leave on just because of how beautiful it is, although if I ever acquire a proper tuni for Infantry I guess I'll be able to 'dress' it).

So, oh forum Gurus, would it be possible to explain the augilette? This uniform has clearly been 'messed with,' but I think that was only with the addition of some of the insignia. The aigulette is a nice peice, I would think it has some value in its own right. I'll try to get closeups tomorrow, I know may have acess to a camera. The only thing I must can note noe is that I'll have counts of the knots and such later, and that it has Greek heads on it (could it be German?).

One last question. For the infantry levee belt, is levee used to refer to a reserve officer of some sort? To me the term means the soldiers in Roman alae, so I'm a bit lost here.

Thanks again!!!!

~TS

You know, a friend of mine does mountaneering ocassionally (usually in addition to archaeological work, you'd be amazed at the conditions at some of the dig sites) and he's seen this, but I stupidly never thought to ask a true master his opinion of the garment!!!! I really appreciate your insight.

This example is dated 1918, as noted, which may explain why it is so 'roomy.' The M15 uniform is also rather loose-fitting, assumedly this was designed for wear over that.

Also, the pictures showing this type of Windjacke are still for sale for a mere 15 euro!!!! I'm rushing to create a Paypal account and figure out how to pay in euros, of course, but at least they're still for sale.

~TS

Must be civilian. It sort of reminds me of the German naval pattern in shape, although it clearly isn't. Could be inspired by it though.

I actually collect more civilian piths than military, and this is one of the more interesting examples I've seen.

~TS

I think the German Bundsarchiv is what you would ask for about that. Or maybe they just lost your letter, I for one have horrible luck with mail to and from German. Don't know why, maybe German mail only runs properly under totalitarian government?

~TS

I suppose a natural successor to this thread are the innumerable words/saying in common usage that have their origin in the military and colonial experience.

Obvious examples would be:

Khaki (India)

Khaki is actually from Persian, Khak. The modern colour originated on the Frontier, of course, were (at least when Harlan was exploring the region) Persian was a very common language and nearly universally spoken among the upper classes.

~TS

That's the tunic. You wouldn't happen to know the years of use, would you? I know the 1902 type is similar, but this has the V-cyphers buttons.

Also, the stable belt isn't for RE proper. Like I said, I think it is for the 17th Lancers, that is what it looks like to me. It doesn't have the wavy centre of the RE type.

The aigulette must just be an odd example (private purchase of some sort?) as it fits regulations but looks just so odd.

~TS

The lace is gold, the picture is just so bad you can't tell. Like I said, the picture doesn't matter, I just really need to know about the stable belt/ belt, which are both simple enought to be described.

~TS

Not really, but I assumed that the strange stuff like the 17th Lancers stable belt (I think) could be helped by the members of the forum.

I don't have a proper digital camera, so no photos anytime soon. What is that tunic in that picture? Commonwealth militia or something?

~TS

Is anyone here familiar with the fact that British soldiers seem to be in love with their bayonets? I seem to remember that the Brits had a nasty habit of bayoneting our poor boys during the Revolution, who customarily used their muskets as clubs.

~TS

Absolutely nothing? Is my picture not visible?

~TS

Here is the group

Are they mounted there permanently?

Also, I think I may know the manufacturer. I'd have to check, but they could be rather recently manufactured by SAE (Swedish African Engineers) in the 60's or 70's.

Do they have any base markings?

~TS

These figures are called Nuremberg flats. What size (in millimeters, if you please) are they? I may be able to help identify the manufacturer.

They were a common type of toy soldier, which dates back to the eighteenth century. They were originally cast from cut stones, which would serve as a long-lasting mould. The purpose of casting them in a 'flat' manner was to save metal, as metal was expensive. Some early examples of these figures are cast from solid gold (Napoleon I had numerous sets in gold and silver).

German toy soldier makers had a good reputation throughout Europe, although around the early twentieth century patriotic feelings in England resulted in W. Britains toy soldiers (with MADE IN ENGLAND famously emblazoned upon the box) overtaking German figures in Great Britain, and, later, on much of the continent.

How many figures do you have in total?

~TS