MattGibbs

IIRC Canada had a bit of input into the initial award dates for the 1939 - 43 Star. Something to do with canadians entering the italian theatre and the qualification dates I think.

The last one, a mini on a bar. I am working on the attribution of this, given the centre on the decoration is the earlier version and that it appears to have come into a shop via a family member. Hard work though!

ttfn

2 british units and a Hazara Mtn Bty pair

Really nice, there must be some superb combinations out there. This thread and indeed this site inspired me to look out for these odd times when I am not collecting uniform or chaplains stuff Now I have started [slowly] I must also start to read up more on these little campaigns.

Speaking of mounting ribbons (not medals), what's the maximum number of ribbons wide the Brits use - four? Five? I can't remember all those pictures I've seen.

Hugh

Hugh;

For the Navy its 3, more than 3 and you start overlapping. Not so nice looking to frame though, I think. I have a group of 4 to a stoker who joined in 1909 and I decided to court mount them just for framing, WW1 trio and LS&GC.

For the army I believe its 5 on swing mounting. Not sure on court mounting like Gordon has done. However, for my money court mounting looks much better. I recently mounted a WW2 group for a friend, with TEM and 2 Bars, his grandfather was in 3 Commando. Real nice to know the family had an interest in keeping them, and displaying them too! With overlapping IIRC the method is to allow 1/3rd of the overlapped ribbon to show. This means you can get about 9 medals on to a 5 place bar which just nicely would fit above the pocket on a uniform. More than that looks a bit naff and crowded. [but thats just an aesthetic opinion]

Those look great Gordon, really nice to have that history.

ttfn

To answer the query about the Blood Order holder with the Panzer wrap.

This is Georg-Henning von Heydebreck

He was Kommandure of the Fallschirm-Panzer-Regiment Hermann G?ring from July 1943 to June 1944.

The missing decoration from this photograph is the Ritterkreuz he was awarded on 25/6/44 so this photo must be before this date, but after the award of his DK.

I am not sure if this is the DKIG or DKIS, as on a published list of DKIG to the Hermann Goring he is not listed.

Interesting family - another member of his family was killed in the SA purges, Hans Peter, was arrested by Hitler himself, who stopped his car on the Munich - Weisse road and asked him if he was "with Rohm". Since he answered yes, off into the truck, with Rohm, later to be shot with the others. Somewhat amusingly, a village in Silesia was renamed Heydebreck in H-P's honour shortly before this, commemorating his leadership of a anti guerilla unit in 1919 against the Poles. He was an SA Gruppenfuhrer; - another member, Otto, was a Reichstag deputy.

Attached pic of Georg.H vonH with blood order ribbon in normal position, from the family website.

Wear of this peculiar, awkward award was always difficult on tunics without chest pockets for "normal" wear-- hence the constant official complaints about nonregulation ribbon bar wear. This is the first "correct" one I have seen for a Panzer tunic!

Can you outline what you mean by the constant official complaints about non regulation wear, or even maybe give me a pic of examples of this? Just wondering what you mean becasue the regs I have seen clearly state the specially folded ribbon for the pocket button to wear properly?

many thanks Rick!

Matt Gibbs

Does anyone know what the patch is??? Still a great lot of photos!

Above it is an arm badge for leaders of the Jungfolk. Circle with a single lightning style S letter on it. They came in various colours, I have a uniform with one on. Mine is for the area Ost and Gebeit Sudetenland if I recall and is red circle with white rune. Therefore it is possible this is a Jungfolk proficiency badge of some kind. Thats all I can think, unless it is an armband

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Pic 6 in that thread is exactly like the one I have, which goes with a tunic I have that is very similar also to the photo'd one

ttfn

Matt

Apologies for confusing anyone with my unintentional mis spellign of the honor, which is the Order of El-Nahda, Hedjaz.

The correct ribbon I was looking for is a 1+7/16th " ribbon [sorry my desk rule is not decimalised] divided into 3 equal bands of colour, from left, Black, green and white, the central green band divided in the centre by a red line. This is the colour of the ribbon for the awards relating to the Hedjaz Arabian order, as instituted by Emir Feisal in 1919 to commemorate the revival of the Arab kingdom.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

nearly ALL worldwide scouting organisations wore a woggle to hold the scarf round the neck. This is not a gilwell woggle, I have one as a fully trained leader. The HJ did wear them

ttfn

matt gibbs

Still issuing condolence slips 60 yrs on?! That does suprise me, any one seen one. Am interested to know.

Incidentally the ribbon of the 1939/43 star was illustraited in a pamphlet I picked up printed in 1944 by "Taffrail" which illustrated ribbons in wear up until that time. The final one listed was the Africa Star.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

No it doesn't, it was used and so I doubt the mark would have lasted. I have seen one with a paper RZM label tied around it which would of course have just been thrown away.

ttfn

Matt

Ed

Apologies if you think my use of the english word native is inappropriate.

I agree in a general way that your point 8 is correct and I also would agree that its ridiculous this is still an attitude to have today. I have made no attempt however to use that word in a derogatory way.

It is a common useage word in the very MYB you decry in your post whether we like it and the way it may seek to label certain peoples. Collectors in this field whom I know have collected since the end of WW2 use this term and probably all those I know use it to differentiate between the medals to british units and those of former empire units, much as in your point number 4. Ugly word or no its in common use and I don't think that will change. Perhaps most people see it is purely descriptive. I am a native of GB, my work colleague is a native of South Africa, my latest IGS is to a native of India, thats the context I use it in.

I think that a book as in your point 7 would be a truly interesting and possibly ground breaking new work of great interest to researchers. However, the enlightened post "empire" society we live in will not change the historical fact that 4 or 5 major european powers had ruddy great swathes of the rest of the world under their oppresive heel for a good part of the 19th and 20th centuries. Whatever the language or point of reference any book comes out in would be personally welcome to me.

Whether we agree or not with the way in which these armies were rasist in that they were mainly officered by white europeans to me is just a point of historical fact. Eliminating the continued policy of denigration by making people aware what the men involved in the actions for which they recieved medals seems to me to be more important, I don't know whether its already happening but if as you say in your point 5 and 8 they are getting to be better known about and sought then isn't that a good thing.

I have spoken to several people who tell me the snobbery of the medal collectors will not be seen to have changed until the price differentials quoted in the price guides are no longer printed. That will then mean all are valued equally. Personally speaking I think my Grandfather took a bullet for freedon in 1940 to hope the world would be a better place and that freedom would win out. Its not so good to think we don't value the medals of some who gave their lives as highly as others just because of where they came from does it?

Many thanks for your response, it has opened my eyes much more to the interests of collecting in this field! The first thing I have done is to get a book just about the Indian Army 1900 to 1947 to read more.

Best wishes

Matt Gibbs

Thanks Ed. I am not after any kind of valuation, I do not see myself targetting this award in the future. My interest was solely in the perceved difference and I wanted to ask your opinion but it is not important! I take your point about rascist attitudes and indeed I believe this is a big part of the medal collector snobbery some of my friends seem to have! Sad but true.

I meant of course attributable, not named. Thats the curse of using the net after work like I usually have to, like now at 2am after a 10 hr shift

I shall be checking with a friend who has some of the DNW catalogues and sales figures, just in case there are any from recent years.

I also appreciate the importance of seperating the Jordanian awards, which personally do not interest me. I have found it hard to get any information from friends interested in this hobby becuse they collect british units or ranks etc and are not interested in medals or awards given by "foreign" nations. Mostly I think they believe I am wasting my time - I think they are missing a lot and they are more interested in value and not actual study or interest.

Feel free to get this moved to the appropriate section if it is annoying people by my misplacing it in the wrong category, clearly I did not really know which section to start placing my questions.

To make it clear my intent is to ask about the Hedjaz awards relating to the period immediately after WW1 that were instituted by Feisal.

I have now kindly recieved a piece of the original 1920s ribbon which I was very glad to recieve,

best wishes

Matt Gibbs

Nice set of medals to a Dogra. I am reading a boig book by one of their officers, quite an interesting read!!!

Thanks for showing. Wish I could find a supplier in India

I was asked why medals to natives generally sell for less compared to brit units and was it just snobbery? I think perhaps its because they are not so easy to research?

Regards and best wishes

Matt Gibbs

Hello folks

Also interested to know if this award is worth less if named/provenance to natives than to allied servicemen/officers. This seems usually to be the case with other medals like the IGS.

regards

MG

I have one but no pic, it is a 3 strand one in a more tan coloured material, but it is HJ and came from an old Dutch collector. It is not a scout one [before someone wonders ] and I too occasionally wear mine to meetings, as I am a group scout leader.

regards

MG

Thanks for that Ed. Now I appreciate your position Sorry to hear there is so much faking in brit/allied miniature groups etc. Shame isn't it..?

I am not in the OMRS here in the Uk, so I have no idea about previous published details of recipients, but at least that saves me typing away on here for no reason!! I am amazed why anyone would want to fake a ribbon group, I thought it was the dangly medals that were really worth anything! Surely only the top end of the gallantry field would be worth it? I suppose its difficult to know. Personally I have known a few vets who in the 60s or 70s or 80s had their medal bars "reconditioned" with new ribbon for Remembrance parades so they did not look tatty. I am sure they didn't think anything of it other than making it look smarter. Is an original group with old ribbon, say a DFC and 3 stars etc is worth substantially more than one with replacements from later years. I would indeed be interested to know. Apart from 2 or 3 all my Boer War medals had ribbon replaced probably by dealers themselves!

I don't know any avenues to research the native recipients of this award in the Hedjaz kingdom so I cannot tell you anything to help from that angle. Perhaps its because more people are interested in the awards of their own country and its own fighting forces, I don't know?

I am suprised that there would be so much narrow mindedness seeing it in the light of only the Brits who recieved it. Since its obviously classed as a "foreign" award to british recipients, who had to specially apply for permission to accept it and wear it there would be far many non-brits who recieved it!

It is illustrated in a 1944 publication I just bought and so I know the colour of the original type ribbon now, but obviously no one produces it!

Its been interesting to learn more on this as I have been reading around. Just because I am looking at this partucular one from the standpoint of a re-enacting display doesn't mean I am not interested in the award, grades, other recipients, makers and other things.

Regards

MattGibbs

thanks but none of that tells me whether brit troops were allowed it....which is what I wanted to know

regards

matt

Suspect the Najdi miniature was never made (maybe by enterprising London jewelers), though the Jordanian continuation is fairly common Iand not too different). Doubt any recipients still live to need miniatures though? Why would you need one? Surely NOT to fake a miniature group?!

Ribbon the same as the later Jordanian award (subsumed to that, though likely rarely worn). There have been some good (and some not-so-good) articles in the OMRS journal on this award to Brits.

Ed,

Faking a mini group?

Paranoid about old minis are we?

Bit of an assumption there methinks?

Miniatures made, like the originals, by the London jewellers who also made the full size jobbies I believe. I am advised by a collector some of these were made in Paris and some in London.

1st type ribbon is not available any longer but thanks for the photo of the cased award, and thanks off the board to an interested collector I may well be able to get a [very] small piece of the original ribbon.

Apart from being a collector I have another hobby which is re-enacting. Since a display I am making includes an RFC chap who won this award then I want to make a ribbon bar for his uniform, thus the need for the ribbon or a source. Not that I feel the need to explain myself, just gentlemanly mentioning why someone might legitametly want to ask for a bit of old ribbon without being a crackpot money grabbing faker working in a dingy basement to make money out of collectors [ and who is going to take an original one of these out to a show in the middle of a field and then find it nicked? ]

Glad there some interest, I may even put on the forum some Biogs of the brits who won this award from Feisal in 1920.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Can someone detail the size and colour of the minature, or ribbon bar ribbon for this award, and whether it is obtainable? I have a small pic of it but not sure if it is "standard" brit type medal ribbon width or not. As presented by King Feisal to a number of Brit. troops and commonwealth after WW1, thought I would post it here, sorry if it is in wrong place but thought it would be buried in "world" section.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Hello there

Can someone help me with the details of chevrons worn on WW2 BD for length of service. In the Brian L Davis book I have it details these on page 113.

However, I am being told that they were not only in red for WW2 service but also there was a blue single one authorised for wear to denote pre war overseas service? It is intimated to me that indeed several blue ones could be worn to denote pre ww2 service.

However, I am sure I have read somewhere this was a WW1 practise and NOT carried into WW2 by BRITISH troops. HOWEVER I am told that it may be that Canadian [poss also ANZAC] troops wore them in WW2..?

Can someone give me some more references to make this clear to me please? I would like to get to the bottom of what is right and wrong, for re-encating purposes [not mine] so others do not make a mistake.

Partly I believe this comes about because there are reproduction badges out there on the market which may make people think these were definately a UK issue.

Also when did the wearing of this come into use?

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Sometimes your eyes just glaze over - something simpler?

Sometimes your eyes just glaze over - something simpler?

Simpler..? With the British WW2 Distinguished Flying Cross. Thats smart.

Regards

Matt Gibbs

maker marked long service stickpin.