v.Perlet

hello 1812 Overture,

sorry that was a mental lapse off mine ? - my daughter and me call him grandpa, factually he is my Father in law and I am German.

If you don't mind I also moved your other photo to this thread.

Below in case you wouldn't know you can see what a China Order of Liberation Class 3 awarded for service in Korea, actually looks like including the ribbon-bar.

Regards

Andreas

Hello 1812 Overture,

don't worry your English is just fine.

As for JapanX - I don't believe he is angry at you at all - i assume that he was rather hitting on me with sarcasm.

Anyway as I mentioned in my first post to you - I don't feel offended at all. especially not if discussions or voicing of different opinions is carried forward in an appropriate manner.

The photo you posted on this other thread is actually very interesting, since it is a very, rare photo in my opinion that shows what original  commemorative veterans medals looks like - thanks!

My grandfather is still going strong with his - 97 - due to his rank and involvement history during the Korean war he also received certain higher war orders. 

Regards

Andreas

22 minutes ago, bolewts58 said:

....... But, you're being obtuse, playing with semantics and splitting hairs about 'East, Far East' to make yourself look clever and you are STILL talking down to me, which I don't appreciate......

 

.......because you know nothing about what is being discussed. ......

 

.......I 'm the one who has concrete knowledge about the Iron Division Medal and why it might be on this bar.

 

.......your tone is condescending and offensive and this isn't the first time I've noticed it.

 

.......I don't need to waste my time with know-it-alls and smart asses.

 

...... I would suggest that if you are as clever and knowledgeable as you think you are, then post something from your collection that contributes to the knowledge of the forum community...........

???? just look at your own statements !!! ?

landsknechte's concern and question was in regards to the missing of a long service medal and not as to what a iron division ribbon, or what the iron Division is about - you did not even catch the question, and you never gave an answer towards that "specific" issue.

Over and out

4 hours ago, bolewts58 said:

Don't talk down to me like I'm an idiot. I have collected Freikorps for over 50 years. I don't need a lesson from you on the Iron division or the medal. I own one and an award document to it and happen to specialize in the "Eiserne Division". I'm also the moderator of the Freikorps Forum on WAF.

 

 

I was responding to the unclear way you wrote your comment which implied that he remained in China ("prolonged his stay in the East") as you were discussing China just before you made this comment. I don't need a geography lesson from you.

 

As I stated, if he received this medal he would have been operating in some capacity in the Eiserne Division / Russian Westarmee in Latvia and Lithuania. If you actually knew anything about this you'd know that the Russian Westarmee took over the Iron Division after it rebelled against orders from the German Government in 1919. It was  then commanded by both General Rüdiger Graf von der Goltz and General Pavel Bermondt-Avalov, a White Russian warlord. They did not operate in Western Russia, except in some air battles that took place over Russia. The theater of operation was the two Baltic states I mention: hence why it was called the Baltic Campaign.

People like you, their specific mentality and argumentative approach are exactly the reason why I stay away from these "other" Forums. If you roam around a Forum that is called Wehrmacht.... and looking at the design of that webpage, I would strongly suggest that you urgently need to familiarize yourself with German terms and expressions.

Im Fernen Osten, in the far East

Im Osten,  in the East - If you don't know that the Baltikum lies in the East - then you got a problem not me. - if you don't know that China is referred to as being im fernen Osten, in the Far East - then again you got a problem not me.

Cite: Als Führer des „Freikorps Lüneburg-Volck“ gehört auch der Autor dieses autobiographischen Berichts zu denen, die sich nach Osten aufmachen.Seine Erlebnisschilderung läßt den „Krieg nach dem Krieg“, der 1919 im Baltikum geführt wurde, wieder lebendig werden.

https://freikorps.info/?p=143

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello 1812 Overture,

sorry if my previous post sounds off as a bit of a harsh reply.

But sometimes I really get annoyed about constant posting and commenting about obvious fakes. The problem resulting from this, is that the real war awards/orders are not sufficiently researched and known to us in the West.

Due to this constant hopping up and down on obvious fakes - the general thought that anything that doesn't look like rubbish must be genuine has taken hold. Which in turn results in collectors paying big $ for very well made FAKES. I do not intend to destroy/hurt someones believe in having payed big $ for a "genuine" medal/order - but sadly having purchased exactly such fakes - selling for US$1000 -10,000 in both China and the West. So I will refrain from contacting or showing e.g. a Forum member what a "real" war Order looks like and how to recognize it.

But I will try to forward my opinion or concern in regards to those who post PRC war medals/orders that they intend to purchase and as such trying to point out the details that unmask a high quality, big $, fake. - due to my contacts and research I have knowledge about certain medals/awards - which however does presently not encompass every single war award or commemorative veterans award.

And try to keep in mind that just because a big$ fake comes in a "genuine" looking medal case has no bearing on the genuineness of the medal/order it beholds. faking a case or box is about the easiest thing one can do in this "Trade of Fakes".

Also one needs to be aware that persons that make/forge war-awards "exactly" as a genuine award - face serious reprisals by the Chinese government, then those who "imitate the looks" of medals/awards. (I assure you, that one doesn't want to get caught faking anything in China that is government supervised or military related - especially not since Xi Jinping came to power). So do not think of Mainland China being the prime source or manufacturer of "genuine looking" high-class fakes. - just my 5 cents.

Regards

v.Perlet

50 minutes ago, bolewts58 said:

Your comment about  "prolonging his stay in the East with a Freikorps unit" makes no sense with regards to the Freikorps or the Iron Division Medal, if by "East" you mean China. The Freikorps areas of operation were Germany, Silesia, Latvia and Lithuania. The Iron Division operated in Latvia and Lithuania. So, that's where he would have had to have been to get this medal.

??? - ".......One of many Freikorps, the Iron Division was raised on January 18, 1919 in Wainoden by an experienced German officer Major Josef Bischoff out of remnants of German 8^th...... Army, Iron Brigade (Eiserne Brigade) being another Freikorps unit and numerous volunteers. On October 06, 1919 it was absorbed by the West Russian Volunteer Army and disbanded on December 31, 1919. Association of the Iron Division former members was formed on March 01, 1920."........

So it was a Freikorps unit that this person joint after November 1918, thus prolonging his stay in the East, and the Western part of Russia would be to the East of Germany (e.g. Eastern Front)  and not to the West - right? Assuming that this person did not travel all the way from e.g. Munich to Western Russia - but already being stationed in the EAST due to being a member of the former German 8th Army - he therefore prolonged his stay in the East - right?

And China, or e.g. Thailand were you are supposedly staying is termed the "Far East". or if you want to break it down further, you are staying in South-East-Asia which is a specific geographical part of the Far East.

https://antique-photos.com/en/homepage/188-awardsdatabase-en/freikorps-awards/219-iron-division-medal.html#:~:text=Iron Division former military personnel%2C non-combatants who assisted,bought by veterans upon presentation of these certificates.

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello 1813 Overture

there is no need for you or others to send me photos depicting fake medals - especially fake war medals.

As I already explained; anything not recorded by the Chinese government and/or Military museums e.g. in Nanjing = and as such also not acknowledged by me, as being an official war medal or Order (Thank God there are not many such medals and Orders) - is a FAKE. Especially those with a rubbish clasp, regardless of interwoven stripes or not is 99,99% fake - read my posts!

I know very well what real war awards look like, and again I am into COMMEMORATIVE CIVILIAN medals, and again, NONE of the ones you have posted so far are COMMEMORATIVE CIVILIAN medals - NONE!!! - so obviously you are not aware about the difference between COMMEMORATIVE CIVILIAN - PIN ON - MEDALS and those rubbish medals with rings and rubbish red ribbon clasps on them.

One of the fake commemorative WAR medals is displayed on the lower row - left.

See my attachment as to what the "real" WAR commemorative medal for VETERANS  looks like.

In the attachment you can see what an original war award looks like that was handed out and awarded to members of the PLA - NOT - PVA during the Korean war - in this case it is a Korean award handed out to one of the veterans that I am very attached to. Since he is a relative of mine.

Now I am waiting for the next wise guy to tell me that it is a fake. - sorry not personally meant towards you.

This topic China and the Korean war and what really went on is more or less totally unknown to Westerners. E.g. would you know that Chinese PLA troops fought in North-Korean uniforms? I am talking about knowing/proof and not assuming - as such would you know or recognize the difference between a North Korean shoulder-board and those "Korean shoulder-boards" worn by PLA - troops NOT - PVA soldiers? And as such with what medals those PLA soldiers and those PVA soldiers were awarded with?

Those medals are just a tiny part within a mostly totally unknown topic for Westerners.

So if you know something that I wouldn't please don't hesitate to tell me and don't waste your time sending me pictures of NON commemorative civilian medals and fake rubbish war or fake and rubbish commemorative veteran medals.

Regards

v.Perlet

1 hour ago, scottplen said:

I contacted seller he will refund my money after I ship it back . Thanks to  all for your help !

 

Great - good news

Regards

v.Perlet

On 04/02/2022 at 04:50, Markd said:

Can anyone explain why this Gefreiter uniform collar has the twisted braid edging?… I thought it was reserved for NCO’s or Officers? 

Hello Markd,

I don't know exactly what you mean by "twisted braid edging"

The yellow piping on your posted Luftwaffe uniform is correct - for a non NCO rank.

The "braiding" you might refer to for a NCO such as a Feldwebel looks completely different see photo 1.

That for officers has a silver piping see photo 2

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello landsknechte,

maybe you are already aware - the ribbons for the China Medaille were the same for the combat

award in bronze, and silver for civilians or military personal in a supportive role.

So "he" could have been anything civilian during the China crisis and 14 years later being called up or

volunteered for the Great war and prolonging his stay in the East with a Freikorps unit.

In such a case his actual service time in the army would have been just 4 -5 years.

Regards

v.Perlet

14 hours ago, scottplen said:

The more I look at case it has a pad on interior lid to hold cross in place and recessed at top where ribbon would hit .Kind of different set up ?  
I do believe a fitted insert is missing you can see ghosting of it .

mans case is black I think red background and flash makes it look reddish ?

Hello scottplan,

I do not have one of my EK casings available at were I presently reside. However any item in reference to an 1870 or 1914 EK known to me, e.g. a wooden-box, a metal casing, a commemorative ribbon, a wallet or stationary set, etc. - depicts an EK more or less very similar to what it actually looks like - something of honor, prestige and value.

And most likely not in the shape or appearance (sorry) of a Bundeswehr cross.

Please see the attachments in reference to my forwarding

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello Deutschritter, and Dave Danner,

I am not sure as to who might mix up these two Gebsattel brothers (actually there are three from the first wife of Viktor Emil v. Gebsattel) in regards to their photos or data beheld in their vitae’s. Please see the below link. As you know there were six v. Gebsattel’s serving during Willis time in this Regiment – hence Willi jockingly refering to the Regiment as the Gebsattel Regiment.

http://www.rothenburg-unterm-hakenkreuz.de/konstantin-von-gebsattels-antisemitismus-im-schutz-und-trutzbund-kleist-zitat-schlagt-sie-tot-das-weltgericht-fragt-euch-nach-den-gruenden-nicht/

Der Adelige Konstantin Wilhelm Hartmann Heinrich Ludwig Freiherr von Gebsattel mit fränkischem Stammsitz in Gebsattel bei Rothenburg wurde 1854 in Würzburg geboren; er starb 1932 in Linz. Er war General und Inspekteur der Kavallerie, und diente im 1870 Krieg.

Er war Rittmeister and Esquadron Chef des Ulan Rgt. 1 in 1895-1897. 1910 quittierte Konstantin von Gebsattel seinen Dienst, zuletzt als Generalleutnant Kommandeur der 1. Kavallerie-Brigade in München und Inspekteur der bayerischen Kavallerie 

His second brother, Hermann von Gebsattel (1855-1939) was Major General of the Kavallerie and founder of the Bird Sanctuary Association of Bavaria.

His 3rd and youngest brother Ludwig Hermann  Freiherr von Gebsattel was Esquadron Chef of the same Regiment but before him (Konstantin) in 1892-1895. Not 1895-1897 as mentioned in the thread.

Also he was promoted to Rittmeister, not Hauptmann on 25.August 1892 and not 19.June 1892 as stated in the thread. He was appointed Major on 28.October 1897 and not on 12. August 1898 as stated in the thread. I am NOT forwarding that my datas collected from various sources would be the correct ones, just saying different sources, different datas regarding Ludwig Hermann von Gebsattel.

The Bayerische Landesbibliothek does not provide clear information or photos in regards to this issue.

Personally I assume that the other website mixed up the photos – but for the sake of interest, would you have a photo of Konstantin von Gelbsattel showing him as a Lt.General? Since the only one I can find shows him as a Leutnant.

Regards

Andreas

1 hour ago, Bayern said:

Feasting in Salami , jajaaa 

During the combats that followed the Battle of Mons in 1914 , British soldiers noted the aproximation on a eminence of what they tought were the Field Kitchens of their Army and dont fire against the carriages .they were German Garde machine Gunners with their carriages . calmly the Germans deployed their guns, range , aim and opened fire with deadly eficience 

Haha.. great one - that was my thought too when I saw these carriage mounted MG's -Feldkueche

If the below photo isn't staged - someone is going to run into a serious problem too

Regards

Andreas

19 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

Not the usual sort of case I would expect for an EK2. These normally didn't open from the side, didn't have a facsimile on the lid and usually have an inlet in the bed for the cross. And the colours, both inside and outside, are strange.

Exactly those were my thoughts too

Regards

v.Perlet

Upss... sorry for that

Hello Komtur - you bidding for that Album?

Why is everyone here called Andreas??

Regards

Andreas

On 11/02/2022 at 11:13, Bayern said:

Perhaps they are part of a dismounted Hussar Regiment from November 1917 seven Hussars Regiments were dismounted and served as Infantry

And they were feasting on Salami ?

A pre war photo - Potsdam Garde MG Abteilung 1

Regards

v.Perlet

I am not so fit on PLM's - but I guess the one on his neck it is one.

An officer from the Potsdam Guard MG Abteilung 1

Regards

v.Perlet

Thanks chuck,

I noticed that almost all offered Wound Badges show all kinds of other materials.

Therefore my thought is as to only one of iron would actually be authentic.

Regards

v.Perlet

6 hours ago, Wyomingguy said:

I agree totally. It is such a look-alike medal and my sense truly is that it was intended to show off a won "iron cross" even though it is a commemorative.

 

Hello Wyomingguy,

let me say, I don't really share that thought.

In those days - if one wasn't amongst other Veterans or Freikorps units - most likely he

would have received some stones or whatever being hurled at him from the Communist

and associated organizations. Since he would have openly displayed a symbol attributed

in vast majority towards nationalist oriented people.

(I am refering to his 'nationalist inspired" veterans association cross - NOT about someone

simply wearing an EK on a war-ribbon)

Also, being amongst his "spirited nationalist comrades", these people knew exactly what an EK

or a war-ribbon looks like. If the respective person would have worn that Veterans Organizations cross on a war ribbon - I think he would have gotten into problems with his own pals, since at that time a real EK with or without a war-ribbon certainly wasn't hard to come by a person who had actually been awarded with one. Just my 5cents?

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello Deutschritter,

now it all makes sense. After you indicated the title "Ritter von Reitzenstein" I finally!!! also realized

that his "Coat of Arms" is not that of the Freiherrn von Reitzenstein.

Found a far better resolution of his documents and awards

BTW his collection that was auctioned of by Hermann Historica 20 years ago was auctioned of by Ratisbon's last year in July. Anyone knows for how much? or what

the asking price was?

https://www.ratisbons.com/de/43rd-contemporary-history-auction/wilhelm-von-reitzenstein-important-military-order-of-max-joseph-winner-s-grouping.html

Thanks for that piece of help - very appreciated

Regards

v.Perlet

5 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

Wilhelm Freiherr von Reitzenstein (1865--1935), Militär-Max-Joseph on 25 September 1914, here the "Ritter" made no difference and was not given as a title, because already Freiherr (Erbadel comes before Personaladel). But then we have the later Generalmajor Wilhelm Reitzenstein (1880--1941), Militär-Max-Joseph on 4 June 1915, now "Ritter von Reitzenstein" (Wappeneintrag: 6. Juli 1915).

 

Hello Deutschritter,

in order not to derail the thread "PIM" I posted my reply under the MVO/MVK thread.

Regards

v.Perlet

9 minutes ago, spolei said:

Da gab es einen monatlichen Ehrensold, aber nagele mich nicht fest, der war entweder 100 oder 150 Mark. Bei der Tapferkeitsmedaille waren es bei der Silbernen 5 und bei der Goldenen 10 Mark.

ja stimmt - den noch obendrauf und Witwen und Waisen Zuschuss?

Gruss

Andreas

52 minutes ago, spolei said:

Das stimmt so nicht ganz. Es gab in Bayern den Titel "Ritter von" entweder zum Orden der Bayerischen Krone oder zum Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden. Der Militärverdienstorden und auch der Michaelsorden beinhalteten keinen Adelstitel. Den Hubertus- und Georgsorden bekamen sowieso nur Adelige.

Das ist schon klar, aber z.b. im Falle (Vornamen weis ich nicht mehr) ein Freiherr von Reitzenstein hat einen Max-Joseph-orden erhalten - daher Ritter Freiherr von Reitzenstein. Als Freiherr ist er ja schon im Erbadel - der Ritter muss (je nach Orden) zwischen 2-3 mal innerhalb der Familienfolge verliehen werden um daraus den Erbadel beantragen zu koennen. Was aber in diesem Fall ja keinen Sinn ergibt da dieser Reitzenstein sich ja schon im Erbadel befindet.

Also gehts wahrscheinlich um die Muecken die der Orden mit sich bringt - ich glaube das waren beim Max Orden so um die 20,000 Maerker.

Habs gefunden - aber zu klein/undeutlich als dass ich Seinen Namen erkennen kann.

War vor ca. 20 Jahren bei einer Hermann Historika Auktion.

Gruss

Andreas

28 minutes ago, David M said:

v. Perlet

 

Thanks for the information. However without the Stammliste entries (if available) or another way to find out  the single or double p s career data, I am unable to confirm. 

All I have is this - but it's in Danish - Parts of Flensburg at the time were Prussian and Danish, with aristocrats crossing the lines at times as you know.

Maybe it can help you.

https://biografiskleksikon.lex.dk/F._Schleppegrell

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello David M,

Schlepegrell, Rittmeister v. (note only one p)

Schleppegrell, Capitaen v.  (note two p)

The 2nd chaps data would be:

Friderich Adolph v. Schleppegrell, 28.6.1792-26.7.1850

1828 Capitaen und Chef fuer Regiment Jaegerkompagnie

Would this be the chap you are looking for?

Regards

v.Perlet