v.Perlet

3 hours ago, ccj said:

The boards posted by v.Perlet and Triadoro are model 1866 boards and were discontinued in 1888. 

Hello ccj,

thanks for that info - so real old boards, thats nice to know. Any idea as to which state and what service branch?

Regards

v.Perlet

7 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

Dear v. Perlet,

 

Please understand finally that this special war ribbon for the MVO was NOT introduced until 1913.... so the pic can NOT pre-date this year.

Awardees who got the MVO for war merits with swords before 1913 did still wear it on the standard ribbon...but could wear it AFTER 1913 on the new created war ribbon.

 

Its a plain WW1 pic. Nothing more.

 

Best,

Daniel 

Hello Daniel,

Are you forwarding that all Bavarian orders before 1913 - no matter if an 1866/1870 award, or a pre-1900 Knight-cross 2nd class, a 1903 MVO in gold, or 1907 MVK in silver all beheld the same ribbon?

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello Chuck,

I will keep my fingers crossed for a speedy and informative reply from Bund Deutscher Ordenssammler

Regards

v.Perlet

3 hours ago, Triadoro said:

Preussen, Oberleutnant, Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 46 ( 1. Niederschlesisches)

m.M.n.

Hello Triadoro,

thanks for the input. The pip center of my board matches the Hannover-board you posted but not the Schlesien board.

Also the texture weaving on the vertical outer side does not match the Schlesien board (or the photo is no good regarding those details) I am referring to these horizontal lines crossing the vertical rim

Regards

v.Perlet

3 hours ago, GreyC said:

Not a German Oberleutnant shoulderboard from WW1 in my opinion. Too narrow wrong texture.

GreyC

Hello GreyC,

the boards are certainly a WW1 issue. I stated maybe Mecklenburg, since these small (semi-kingdoms) like Braunschweig, Hannover, Mecklenburg, Waldeck und Pyrmont, Reuß, etc. are known to me for having these slim boards.

Regards

v.Perlet

I wouldn't really know but I think as a Vizefeldwebel he wouldn't have been entitled to wear an officer Feldzeichen.

The only exception I am aware of, permitting officer like attributes are pertaining to Feldwebel-Leutnants.

Since you are into uniforms the attached file in regards to dresscode regulations for Officers might be of interest to you - hopefully your German is "reasonably good"?

Regards

v.Perlet

Offiziersbekleidungsvorschrift_1911.pdf

Hello spolei,

thanks again - it basically confirms my knowledge about Officers being awarded with a MVO and not a MVK.

I still maintain my view, that this photo was taken before the war - due to a very young Lt. wearing the 1895 introduced Parade Ulanka and the pre-1913 cap style with a single Kokarde. I would not categorically out-rule that a photo displaying those Uniform attributes might have been taken in the early month of the war.

- but then the Lt. wouldn't have been awarded with a 1914 onward MVK.

Other possibilities e.g. being awarded with an MVK due to being a Faehnerich and later promoted to Lt. (still wearing a pre-1913 cap insignia style) are just speculative assumptions and simply don't correlate with what the photo shows.

Reading through the entire thread, and having seen multiple MVO's single or displayed on bars with ribbons confirm that this chap is displaying an MVO ribbon and could very well have been awarded a MVO in the period 1900 - 1910 - which fits perfectly with the aforementioned uniform issues and his rank.

See great example of Major Wilhelm Schwandner:

He got the KO4X and MVO4X in DSWA as a Leutnant.

KO4X - 17.8.1905
MVO4X - 07.12.1905

Fähnrich - 8.2.1899
Leutnant - 7.3.1900
Oerleutnant - 18.10.1909
Hauptmann - 26.10.1914
Major - 15.10.1919

If you or anyone else would have 1900-1910 photos of ribbons in view of a pre-war MVO.s on officers please kindly post them - thanks and let's keep this thread back on MVO/MVK.

Regards

v.Perlet

Time to reenact this thread.

Vizefeldwebel Friedrich Schwaiger (geb. 25.03.1878 in Weicht -Beckstetten) 1899 Oberjäger, u.a. beim 1.Jäger-Bataillon Straubing und Freising, infolge Mobilmachung im 1.Ers.Batl.K.1.Jäg.-Batls., am 20.11.14 zum Schneeschuh-Batl., dann Gebirgs-Infanterie Ersatz Bataillon ! Am 30.10.1918 zum Grenzschutz-Batl. "Deßauer"

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello MG1918

very interesting thread and great photos!

What would the sleeve badge of the standing Bavarian? soldier indicate?

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello gents,

someone able to identify these Oberleutnant shoulder-boards as to which German State and what branch of service? very fine silver weaving.

Mecklenburg?

Regards

v.Perlet

12 hours ago, spolei said:

 

 

 

Here are the three types of ribbons used by MVK and MVO. Only the first class of the MVO had a different color sequence, which is irrelevant here, since it was worn around the neck.
On the left the ribbon used from 1866 until the First World War. From 1913, the band with the black side stripes was introduced for participants in the war. In 1915 there was the so-called "official ribbon" for war service to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants, because both received crosses with swords. Since the Ulan wears the war ribbon, the photo cannot be from before the First World War. Ancestry's personnel records often mention that the officer is entitled to continue wearing his uniform after being discharged. Therefore, the picture can well come from the 20s. Is it labeled on the back? When the field-grey uniform from the war was broken, the old pre-war uniform was put back on. After WW1 hardly anyone had money to re-equip themselves.

Hier die drei Bandarten, die bei MVK und MVO Verwendung gefunden haben. Lediglich die erste Klasse des MVO hatte eine andere Farbfolge, was hier aber unwesentlich ist, da er am Hals getragen wurde.
Links das Band, dass von 1866 bis zum Ersten Weltkrieg verwendet wurde. Ab 1913 wurde für Kriegsteilnehmer das Band mit den schwarzen Seitenstreifen eingeführt. 1915 gab es für Kriegsverdienst das sogenannte "Beamtenband", um den Unterschied zwischen Kämpfer und Nichtkämpfer zu unterscheiden, denn beide bekamen die Kreuze mit Schwertern.
Da der Ulan das Kriegsband trägt, kann folglich kann die Aufnahme nicht vor dem 1. Weltkrieg stammen. In den Personalbögen auf Ancestry ist oftmals erwähnt, dass der Offizier nach der Entlassung berechtigt ist, seine Uniform weiter zu tragen. Von daher kann das Bild gut aus den 20ern stammen. Ist es rückseitig beschriftet? Wenn die feldgraue Uniform aus dem Krieg kaputt war, dann hat man die alte Vorkriegsuniform wieder angezogen. Nach dem WK1 hatte doch kaum noch jemand Geld sich neu auszurüsten.

Hello spolei,

thanks again for the input - very appreciated!

I admit the photo is very confusing at least to me. It's an officer (Lt) wearing the "Bunte Rock" Ulanka, it is not the Fielduniform. The Ulanka he is wearing was introduced in 1895 and was worn till as long as the uniform might last.

The cap he is wearing as already mentioned, shows only the Bavarian state Kokarde - the regulation for adding the Imperial Kokarde was AFAIK issued in 1912/13. - see below photo of Ulan father (colonel) and Ulan son (Lt.) taken in 1913.

Unforunatley the photo with the Lt. chap shows no date and the text written on the reverse doesn't make sense.

So if it does not show a ribbon that was issued before WW1 incl. a peacetime award - then the photo might have been taken very early in 1914. I don't know why you think it is a post war photo. IMHO the chap is barely 20 years old. (okay thats just me)

Last question: Were officers awarded with MVK's?

From what I know - which isn't much it would be:

• MVK 3rd Class with Swords: Gefreiter, Soldat (Infanterist, Kanonier, Chevauleger, etc.)
• MVK 3rd Class with Crown and Swords: Sergeant, Unteroffizier
• MVK 2nd Class with Swords: Feldwebel, Vizefeldwebel
• MVK 2nd Class with Crown and Swords: Offizierstellvertreter
• MVK 1st Class with Swords&with/without crown: Feldwebelleutnant and etatsm.Feldwebel

• MVO 4th Class with Swords: Hauptmann/Rittmeister, Oberleutnant, Leutnant
• MVO 4th Class with Crown and Swords: Major
• MVO 3rd Class with Swords: Oberstleutnant
• MVO 3rd Class with Crown and Swords: Oberst
• MVO Officer's Cross: Oberst
• MVO 2nd Class with Swords: Generalmajor
• MVO 2nd Class with Star and Swords: Generalleutnant
• MVO 1st Class with Swords: General

Since I do not want to derail the MVO/MVK thread with uniform issues, I might take the photo to another topic.

Thanks again for your help

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello spolei

thanks for your reply. MVO or MVK ribbon agreed. Unless otherwise convinced the Uniform is 1910 or before and the Chap could very well be a Leutnant.  Therefore it would off course be very interesting when the photo was taken. Normally one won't wait for 5-10 years to take a photo in his old uniform. So it is feasible that the photo was taken somewhere around 1900-1910 and the award would then be a peacetime MVO for Officers or MVK silver for non-officers without swords.

The ribbon part you would know better then me.

The figures regarding participants (volunteers off course integrated into the East-Asia-Cavalry-Regiment) from the Bavarian Ulan regiments results from the Tradition homepage of the Bay,Ulanenregiment1/2, sources and research conducted by http://www.boxeraufstand.com/  and also in little parts by myself. - i am only referring to Bavarian Ulanen.

Franz Xaver Epp was only Rittered in 1916? and he was an Infantry guy in the Bavarian Army - he was never in a Ulan Regiment - he served in the 19th Bavarian Infantry regiment as Oberleutnant and joined with that rank the officer corps in the 4. Ostasiatisches Infanterie-Regiment.

Okay lets see what further enlightenment will be shed on that Ulan photo.?

Regards

v.Perlet

17 hours ago, landsknechte said:

 

Weight: 5.1g

The cross is 17.5mm wide at it's widest part. 

The thickest part of the center roundel is 2.6mm.

It appears to be copper, or some sort of mostly copper alloy.  I don't really have a way to test that other than appearance 

Hello landsknechte,

here is a photo of a Miniature MVO presently being offered (horrible looking piece-okay after all it is very small?)

Regards

v.Perlet

8 hours ago, Bayern said:

Hello Cathy , first of all Mr William Brown enlisted in th Army in 1860 and remained in service until 1881 , a life in the Army. but , in which Regiment or Corp he enlisted ? To enlist in the Army Hospital Corps were required two or three years of previous service and then a probatory period of six months ,once approved you  compromises to serve three years in active and another three in reserve . the uniform on the photo dont fits with any uniform used by either the Medical Staff Corps or the Army Hospital Corps . appears as khaki in colour but not khaki drill , the cuffs , collar and piping on the front of the tunic were probably blue , the same the hungarian knots over the cuffs , over the right one is barely visible the round bage with the Geneva Cross , regarding the buttons , the AHC carried large  buttons gilded and 25mm in diameter 

Hello Bayern,

since you have far better resources and knowledge then me - please have a look on the photos I posted.

Cathy Coomber mentioned Canada till 1877

If you enlarge her photo regarding the Hungarian cuff and also the cut of the uniform would you say that the Uniform and especially the cuff pattern of the  Canadian GRAND 'TRUNK RAILWAY BRIGADE have a strong resemblance?

Even though the button spacing differs.

Blue circle - crossed rifles?

The unit is mentioned in the timeline 1866-72

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello gents,

i would appreciate some input in regards to the Bavarian Ulan Photo.

I am aware that the thread is about MVO and MVK's - luckily he seems to wear a ribbon of these awards.

I would have four questions to this photo:

1. is it a pre-war photo? - looks like a 1895-1910 Ulanka, and only one Kokarde

2. Can on a B/W photo a ribbon representing an MVO be differentiated from a ribbon belonging to a MVK?

if yes, is it an MVO ribbon or MVK ribbon?

3. Is the chap an officer? no Mannschafts button on the collar also no NCO Tresse.

4. Can someone who is experienced in determining original colors on B/W photo tell me if the Epaulet frame would be silver or bronze/gold.

Initially I thought its an MVO or MVK ribbon - but not knowing about how actual colors show up in B/W I assumed that it might be a China Gedenkmuenze ribbon - which would have been fantastic? since to my knowledge only one Bavarian Ulan Officer a Lt. (if the chap is an officer) and 11 privates plus one Trompeteer took part in the China expedition.

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello landsknechte,

thanks for the info. I think it could very well be the raw die-cast for a miniature MVO on a chain.

Interesting that the cast also behold the ring mounting.

Regards

v.Perlet

Here is one too

Regards

v.Perlet

On 05/02/2022 at 02:27, Leutwein said:

Your photo shows still a MVK-ribbon!

 

The inner stripe is yellow and in the most cases it is black on a b/w photos.

 

 

Furthermore the third white stripe is missing on your photo!

 

white_black_white_red_white and the yellow inner stripe.

 

I don´t think that your photo is a pre WW1-photo.....

 

 

Hello Leutwein,

Darn it, I was so happy about having found a really rare photo.

I surely can't deny those colors appearing on the photos posted by you and others.

Assuming that yellow and white won't differ on a B/W photo I ignored the not visible white stripe between the red and yellow.

As for the Ulan, well I haven't come across a WW1 photo "yet" showing an e.g. Bavarian with only his state Kokarde.

So the question still would be that of an pre-war MVO or MVK?

Anyhow I would like to keep the thread alive as to its initial topic of Bavarian soldiers showing a China or Herero decoration/award - so if any photos should be posted I would be looking forward to them.

The posted three photos are just in reference to the appearance of yellow off a China ribbon on a B/W photo

Regards

v.Perlet

1 hour ago, VtwinVince said:

Looks like a MVK ribbon to me. I have never seen the ribbon of the China medal being worn in the Knopfloch.

Hello VtwinVince,

I agree it does look "very matching to a MVK ribbon" it is also what I thought first. But checking on diverse photos I do not see a convincing match yet to an MVK ribbon - since the blue stripe would be far more broader then the black or white.

And the only difference between a MVK ribbon and a China ribbon would be red stripe contra blue and white contra yellow on a B/W photo - more or less I think not able to differentiate.

The "Blue" or "Red" stripe on the Ulan ribbon is more or less equal in width.

Also to my limited understanding this photo is a pre WW1 photo (The cap only displays the Bavarian Kokarde) so an MVK pre-war? on a combat ribbon - or do peacetime and war ribbon look the same?

Hello dedehansen,

unfortunately the photo you posted is extremely unclear and small.

The medallion seems to be that of the China expedition - but the ribbon doesn't match.

From outside right - white stripe, black stripe (so far okay)then white stripe but double the width of the previous black stripe (this would already be wrong. Also the inner stripe is yellow and I think would not show as black on a B/W photo. You can see the ribbon of the Centennial medallion is dark yellow and shows up as light grey on the B/W photo - not black.

See attached photos;

And closeup of the Ulan ribbon

But I am open to discussions as to what ribbon this Ulan is wearing.

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello gents,

it is not unusual to see photos of Imperial German troops who display medals/orders referring to the 1900 China Expedition.

However I stumbled upon this IMHO "extremely rare" photo of a Bavarian Ulan member wearing a China campaign ribbon.

So please feel free to post other photos of Bavarian Army members displaying China Campaign medals/ribbons and or those referring to the Herero uprising.

Regards

v.Perlet

24 minutes ago, graham said:

Hope this helps:

 

https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/weimarer-republik/deutsches-feld-ehrenzeichen.html

Hello graham,

sure does!! - thanks, oh and i love speedy replies?

Regards

v. Perlet

Hello landsknechte,

any info regarding dimensions, weight, thickness, material composition?

Regards

v.Perlet

i stumbled upon this badge - or Ehrenfeldabzeichen

Could some of you enlighten me as to who awarded this? and when?

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello pieter1012,

yes off course you are correct - I got mixed up writing the post whilst looking at your first photo with the wrong bar.

Regards

v.Perlet

Hallo Pieter1012

The ribbons bars on the Liberation order are;

1st class 1 yellow stripe, 2nd class 2 yellow and 3rd class 3 yellow stripes.

The ribbon bars on the August 1st order are;

1st class 1 red stripe, 2nd class 2 red and 3rd class 3 red stripes.

Are you referring to the August 1st order (pentagon style) or the Order of Ba Yi Xun Zhang (in English sometimes referred to as Bayi) Whereas the August 1st order was handed out in large numbers compared to the Bayi order which had a very selective criteria. see the photo showing the Sen.Colonel with the neck ribbon

There is also a follow up medal of this order - more or less the August 1st order without the pentagon star - just the circle rim and the star in the middle.

As for numbers awarded I couldn't tell you right now

Judging from the photos your orders look good.

I do not want to dishearten you, but be aware that on ORIGINAL (including state-verified documents - not just a nice box) of the August 1st order 1st class in massive gold is traded in China from US$ 60000 - 100000.

Check the link please:

https://auction.artron.net/paimai-art0034202178/

Regards

v.Perlet