Pete A

Hi Paul,

The two blue ones in the middle are Finnish. The first one is 1918 medal of liberty 1st class, and the second 1918 liberation war commemorative medal. The last ribbon is unfortunately unknown to me.

Pete

-- Edit: Seems like Rick R. already beat me at the other forum.

I too spotted that one last night, and it is one hell of a picture. Kampfwagen photos aren't easy to come by, let alone quality ones like this. No doubt the price will be high.

Pete

If I recall correctly, the regulations for the order of St. George required that the recipients must always wear the awards, no matter what. Maybe this went with the soldier's crosses of St. George too?

Pete

My quess is it's a Lithuanian firefighter decoration.

Thanks, Richie. Looking forward for more of your Bulgarian stuff!

from the site of Bulgarian National Museum of Military History (http://www.md.government.bg/nvim/_en/index.htm) I managed to find some uniform pictures, but they too seem to cover mainly a bit older period than those you have shown.

Pete

Richie,

very nice uniforms, and not too often seen, i quess. The mixture of Russian and German influences is quite interesting. Any chance of getting a brief rundown on history of Bulgarian uniforms?

Pete

Great bars and and excellent research!

It would be nice to know why Karl Lorck, a mere Lieutenant, was ennobled? Did Prussia use the system where one could have been ennobled for the deeds of his father, like in Russia and Sweden?

Pete

Hi,

this might be a hell of a long shot, but since Chris said that it's not necessarily a shooting badge, that got me wondering if it could it have something to do with the Chevalier Guards? That MF cypher would for fit the dowager empress Maria Feodorovna, who was their honorary colonel-in-chief, and so would the colors red and white. But then again, there's that black center..

Here's a jeton commemorating MF's 25 years as the regiments colonel-in-chief, from 1906 by Faberge. It's exactly like their "official badge". Can't remember where this photo is from, sorry.

[attachmentid=23641]

Pete

Oh no-- he was a junior officer, probably a Leutnant or Leutnant der Reserve with that Cross of Liberty. Nice combination, and possibly Gebirgsmaschinengewehrabteilung 229:

the only UNIT that went on from Finland to Silesia-- an NCO from GMGA 229 was the designer of the Silesian Eagle.

Of course lone officers could have strayed from anyplace.

A nifty bar and an usual combination!

229. Gebirgs-MG-Abteilung was part of 'Freikorps Paulssen', which was part of 'Detachement Lierau'. But also the Stab of Ostsee-Division was sent to Silesia on 22. december 1918 as Gruppe West. On 5. may 1919 it became 'Gruppe Briese'. (von der Goltz in his memoirs: ".. I arrived with my staff and unfortunately only few of my former troops in Silesia")

Also, some sources say that Frw. Radfahrer Abt. 8, which was part of ' Schlesisches Kavallerie Brigade', came from the Ostsee-Division? Is this true? And what Bicycle-unit that might have been?

By the way, one of the most notable of former 'Finnlandk?mpfers' in Silesia was GM Otto von Brandenstein, who commanded 'Brigade z.B.V. 6' which was also called (d?j? vu) Brigade von Brandenstein. (Again, von der Goltz: "When general v. Brandenstein came from a memorial Mass held for the fallen, was his own brigade clerk in front of the church, handing out flyers that encouraged men against their officers. When general called the man, he sent a word that the general could come to him instead. For his unheard-of-behaviour the rebel got warm support in the soldier's council of Breaslau, so that it was not possible to have him resigned. Thus, the very distinguised general, who was fed up with such circumstances, saw it better to resign himself.")

Pete

How about the White Elephant of Siam?

Pauls' EK2 document is apparently from the stocks of 12th landwehr-division, from which the staff of Ostsee-Division was formed from. His MoL2 document however is especially made for the Division. But more interestingly, Spiegelberg's CoL2 is given right after the war, but Pauls' is issued when Germans started to leave the country (last ones left 12.12). Spiegelberg might have gotten his award because he got wounded. Pauls on the other hand might have been an instructor for the new Finnish army during his stay, and got his medal for that. or, then it's one of those thousands of "thanks-for-being-around" -awards of November 1918, mentioned in

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1166&st=40

Anyway, nice documents, and rare to see two from the same unit.

Pete

Dan (and others),

there is a similar Guards Equipage badge for sale at the next Dmitry Markov auction, lot 2204 (www.russian-medals.net, the on-line catalogue doesn't seem to work with firefox though). Not to mention all those other imperial russian goodies..

Pete

Just for a comparison, what would the same grade with its award document to a living recipient sell for?

We NEVER see such things for sale over here, so above 3rd and 4th classes, I have NO idea what the "retail price" is on senior Finnish orders.

I have no idea, can't remember when a set like that was previously for sale. But I admit that the price might have been a bit too high for the Finnish collector market. Jani Tiainen's (of Finnmedals) collector guide for Finnish orders & medals will be published soon, maybe that will ease the situation a bit.

Pete

Thanks, George. I went and bought the book. Not much of a picture reference (on details, otherwise the pictures look good), but the text seems to be very extensive and intresting. Looks like money well spent.

Pete

.. and it didn't sell.

WHY was Colonel Nurmi awarded this? I thought all officers killed in action recieved the 4th Class on black ribbon??????

Lt.Col. Martti Nurmi was the officer responsible for the defense of the Taipale sector (anyone seen the movie 'Winter War'?). He was also one of those rare cases of high-ranking officers who got promoted during the winter war. He was made colonel on 12. January 1940. He got killed in a railroad-crossing accident involving a car and a train on 6. february 1940.

So technically, this was the cross that should have been given to him, but since he was no longer around when the crosses were being awarded, his wife got it, to be worn as a mourning cross. Like it says on the award document:

"..for the bravery and sacrifice show by your husband during the war, I have given you the Cross of Liberty first class with swords.. ..which you are entitled to carry in a black ribbon of mourning."

Unique piece, indeed.

Pete

Old thread, but anyway..

George,

you seem to have that Tillander-Godenhjelm book I've been planning to buy. Is it good? At least on the promotional web-site it looks very interesting.

Pete

Thanks Christophe!

Didn't see this until now, but I had almost given up with this one. Just what I was looking for.

Pete

Nice looking bars. One correction, though. In 1918 CoLs there wasn't any difference with the ribbons of civilian and military divisions. A device would help, but those seem to be quite rare in German WW1 groups.

Pete

How did he get his Finnish awards? He should be added to the Finnish list, right?

bis 06.1918 Navigationsoffizier, SMS Westfalen

That's how. Westfalen was the flagship of the Sonderverbande der Ostsee. And I was pretty sure that he was on the list, but looks like I have accidentaly left him out.

Pete

Very interesting to see an miniature of long service service St. George. Since the awarding ceased in 1855, that must be quite early piece. Any idea when miniatures in general started to show up?

Pete

* * * * *

PeteA

Is it your contention that all St. George Crosses had to be numbered to be legitimate? Are you sure?

Consider that it was common for private masters to make St. George Crosses on special order that were not numbered. These were worn as if they had come from government stock, assuming the wearer was entitled to the award, of course. Also, I think the base metal crosses were not well received and some soldiers, especially officers, bought precious metal versions with their own funds, if they had any.

Was it not also the case that very late-war Turkish Front "Soldiers Committee" St. George Crosses were not numbered?

Thus, might not there be examples that were legitimate but not numbered?

I think it is likely that not all authentic awarded St. George Crosses were numbered. However, I freely admit my ignorance here, and I do not claim to be an expert of any kind, merely a curious collector.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

neither can I claim to be any kind of an expert, nor hardly even a proper collector.. and keeping in mind that I have never owned a St. George cross, here goes nothing..

First of all, I also think that not all the official St. George crosses were numbered. Anything is possible, especially after 1917. But for me the number (assuming that it matches the award rolls) is one proof of originality.

The crosses and medals of St. George were awarded to the recipients by the Russian government. Of course, the recipient could purchase a privately made piece too.

For example, the recipient in the need of money could sell his gold cross and purchase a duplicate one, made out of bronze. As in the same way a recipient who was decorated with a bronze cross (war-time material reduction, after October 1916) could purchase a golden one, if he had the money. But since this was an award for the other ranks, I'd say that the first option was more common.

But the thing being, like you said, that whether you obtained a totally new cross, or had your old one duplicated, you needed to have the provenance that you were entitled for the cross. And if you had the provenance, as far as I know, you also had the number. And why would the jeweller not engrave/stamp that number on these privately made crosses too?

On your comment about officers purchasing St. George crosses, I know that those "Soldiers Committees" awarded these crosses to some officers, is this what you mean? Or a case where an EM/NCO was promoted to officer, but naturally kept wearing his St George(s) after that?

By the way, here is a good, but a bit unstable site about St. George crosses, maybe more information can be found there: http://nubirus.chat.ru/HomepageEnglish.htm

Regards,

Pete

I have NO clue what the combination of fur hat and Ulanka with gorget imply for regiment or rank, but

That's a St Anna 2nd Class at his throat, a St Stanislaus 2nd class peeping out at his buttons' side, two medals the contrast doesn't allow me to identify (? Mobilization 1914 and ? Romanov Tricentennial 1913) and a screwback school badge.

Can't help with the unit or uniform, but judging by his awards, I'd say his rank is most likely captain or staff captain. Being quite elderly looking, he should have at least 30-40 years of service behind. If that's the case, he sure was no career-rocket. Maybe he is a reserve-officer? The second medal is a 1913 Romanov for sure, but the first one could - besides that mobilization medal - be anything from the 1884 Alexander III coronation to the 1909 bicentennial of Poltava. God only knows.

Pete

That's about it. Also the medals of St. George (the four-classed version, post 1878) were numbered.

It's nice too see this new forum, I too hope it grows. The imperial Russian award system is most interesting, and in my opinion these orders - especially those made pre-1914 - are amongst the most beautiful around. Too bad they command such high prizes that I can't afford buying them. Well.. maybe some day.. until then I'll have to settle for looking them in pictures.

Nice examples, gentlemen.

Pete

Hi Pete,

these clasps were only for the medical personal of the "medical volunteer service" (Freiwillige Krankenpflege). Only these few sanis or docs who went in the special crisis region got the bar...

2 x Ostasien and 5 x S?dwestafrika were for the second class, all others were for third class medals.

Some people (6) got 2 clasps and 1 got 3 clasps for several journeys...

If you still had the medal you could get a clasp to the medal later...

Heiko

It's all perfectly clear now. Thanks, Heiko!

Pete