Pete A

there are only 2 clasps which are similar to the colonial medal and the china medal... it is "Peking" and "S?dwestafrika 1904/06" but these clasps for the red cross medal have different styles.

There were:

T?rkei 1897 (inofficial) - maybe 1

S?dafrika 1899/1900 - 30

Ostasien 1900/01 - 77

Peking - 5

Charbin 1904/05 - 10

S?dwestafrika 1904/06 - ca.105

rare pieces all of them...

Heiko

Thanks Heiko.

So were these only for the III. class or was the II. class possible too? And what if one already held a red cross medal, was the bar simply added to the old one, or was a second medal awarded?

Since the award numbers are so low, I assume that not every medical person involved got one? What was the criteria?

A lot of questions, hope you don't mind.

Pete

Heiko,

That's one nice looking bar you have there. And apparently quite rare with the clasp.

Can you (or somebody) tell what other clasps were instituted for the red cross medals? I assume they were all for the colonial campaigns? I know there was one for the boxer rebellion in China.

Pete

What a wonderful bar!

Without any kind of actual knowledge, i'd take a plunge and guess that this one is NCO/EM bar? If this is the case, then wouldn't that prussian style mounting be pretty early for such thing?

Pete

Hi Chris,

IF the second ribbon is supposed to represent the Finnish CoL2, that would be a 1941 (combatant) version, 1918 had red stripes on yellow. Maybe it's something else?

Pete

Could somebody tell if there was any rank/position requirements for the different degrees of DOA (both models)? Or was it all just case sensitive?

Thanks,

Pete

Thanks!

Pete

Here it is....... can someone please post what the three Finnish Awards are on the end of this bar? Thanks!

Medal of Liberty 1st class, Medal of Liberty 2nd class, commemorative medal for the liberation war of 1918.

Do we know whether or not Rittmeister von Ehrenkrook was present for the liberation of Helsinki in 1918?

--Chris

He sure was. But did he got the commemorative medal for that, is another question.

Pete

Very nice looking awards. A question though, how does one wear these commander grades? Is the Chief Commander an addition to commander grade (one wears them both), or is it worn alone in the chest?

Pete

Good points. And after all, it's not about the monetary value, but the historical, and the fact that someone is willing to take good care of it.

Chris: Drastic actions, eh? A Russian destroying US MOHs? Wouldn't that ignite the cold war all over again? And what on earth have you against the keyboard player of Ace of base?

Pete

Nice one, Rick! That's one brave NCO. I wonder if he really was awarded the both medals of liberty or did he just got the MoL1 and decided to stick that interim MoL2 ribbon to his bar too..

Pete

The St. Stanislaus would have likely been one of the easier ones to come by in Germany, and the ribbon on this lapel bow certainly looks like a regular St. Stanislaus ribbon. I suspect that the two that look like the St. Anne ribbon are "make do" ribbons as well, probably Baden Long Service ribbons (although there are a few that are close enough in appearance). Notice how much wider the stripes are on those ribbons than the normal St. Anne ribbons.

Wouldn't be the first time when Germans would use look-alike ribbons. If this really is a home-made, close-enough bow, I'd still vote the #4 being a Redeemer-order.

Pete

The "Swedish" MoH has sold for 44000sek , about 5430usd. Add to this the auction house commission.

Well.... at least I got to see it...

/Kim

Wow. Looks like there was some serious bidding going on. But still, the final price price seems quite low to me. After all, we are talking about America's highest bravery decoration. But then again, maybe the prices would be higher if the markets were completely open for the American buyers too? (or are they? this seems to be bit controversial?) The one thing I've alway liked about the British Victoria Crosses is that their sale prices are always quite well in balance with the status and prestige of the award. Or is it because that one guy, what's his name, buys them all?

Any information on how much other MOHs have sold?

Pete

Take a close look at the ribbon for the St. Vladimir - it looks rather homemade being cobbled together out of two pieces of ribbon. I suspect that there are a few of the ribbons on here that were called in to service as "close enogh" expediencies. That blue and white ribbon could be leftover Bavarian Landwehr miniature ribbon (as below) used to represent something else.

--Chris

True, I didn't even pay attention to that St. Vladimir at first, but now that you mentioned it, it does look like the red stripe is sewn on top of the black one?

Pete

That much I understood too with my 6+ years of studying my "second native language" ..I've personally never seen any other reverses than the one above, and the explanation that this 1945-idea was dropped later on seems logical. The 1918 invalid badge was numbered. But am I correct that this badge was supposed to replace the 1939-1940 version?

Pete

Pete,

I don't think...

The Greek Order of the Redeemer should have a very thin light blue strip on each edge / border of the ribbon. This is not the case here.

About the Russian medals inspired by St Anne ribbon, the yellow strip should be narrower than the one of the lapel bow...

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers.

Ch.

Christophe,

So it seems. I guess it's time for new eye-glasses.. .. and regarding the st anne, you are also right. I was merely thinking, that since this really looks like a german-made piece, could this have been a case of "close enough" with the ribbons?

How about Militar Ordem de Nossa Senhora de Concei??o de Vila Vi?osa from Portugal, then?

Pete

Hi Chris.

Not a very typical Russian style, like you said. For #4, I'd go with the Greek Order of the Redeemer. When looking at the close relations between the Russians and the Greeks, that would seem like the most logical choice. As for #5, I have no idea. It looks like St. Anne. All the russian medals used the ribbons of their orders, so maybe it's one of those?

Pete

..and some airmen:

Leutnant zS Droege

Hauptman Georg Liebermann von Sonnenberg

Leutnant Haehner

Unteroffizier ?opkowski (Schopkowski?)

Sergeant Br?mer

Unteroffizier Adolf Rippich (born 14.8.1896, Killed 29.4.1918, FFA 16)

Leutnant Hosmann

Leutnant dR Lehmann (Lehman?)

Vizefeldwebel Margoll

Leutnant Konrad Gustav Friedrich von B?low-Bothkamp (born 26.6.1895, Killed 11.8.1918 in Finland)

Leutnant Willy Blanck (Killed 11.8.1918 in Finland, probably at the same time as von B?low-Bothkamp)

here is a .pdf file where you can read more about the German air activity in Finland in 1918.

So far, from what Rick's posted, it looks like Rittmeister Ehrenkrook is the only one from that unit that got the White Falcon (of either grade) and survived long enough to have gotten the Hindenburg Cross. The other two were dead before 1934. Are there any pictures of him in particular?

Thanks,

--Chris

Sorry, can't find a picture of him, but he was pretty much in the heat of the action, so I'd expect him to have a cross of liberty of some sort.

Pete

..and the navy. As before, some ranks and duties might be bit incorrect, bear with it.

Staff of the Sonderverb?nde:

I Admiral: Konteradmiral Hugo Meurer {1869-1960 char Vizeadm zS aD}

II Admiral: Konteradmiral Hartog {Johannes, 1867-1947, KontAdm zS aD}

I Admiralty-Staff-Officer: Kapit?nleutnant Leisler Kiep {Louis Leisler Kiep, 1884-after 1935 see ?Wer Ist?s?? 1935 char KorvKapt zS aD}

II Admiralty-Staff-Officer: Kapit?nleutnant Max Bastian {1883-1958, Admiral zS aD, RK-KVKX}

III Admiralty-Staff-Officer: Kapit?nleutnant Ihssen {Kurt, 1884--, char KorvKapt zS aD, EK1, ?, HH}

I Flag-Lieutenant: Oberleutnant zS Beyer (Baier?) {Franz Beyer, 1892--, Oberlt zS aD}

II Flag-Lieutenant: Oberleutnant zS Wehrmann {Karl, 1894--, Oberlt zS aD}

III Flag-lieutenant: Leutnant zS Rieckhoff (later worked as interpreter-officer) {G?nther, 1895--, char Oberlt zS aD, KaptLt zS (E) 1933}

Naval Engineer Sch?fer {Marine-Chef-Ingenieur Fritz, 1863-after 1938, Kapt zS (Ing) aD 1921}

Doctor: Dr. Fontane {Marine-Generaloberarzt Franz, 1872--, char MarGenArzt aD = Kapt zS. China 1900}

Paymaster: Kleemann {Marine-Oberzahlmeister Gustav, 1886--, char Mar StabsZM aD 1928}

Court-Martial Counselor (?) Korsch {not in MERL}

Court-Martial Counselor (?) Dr. Frauen {not in MERL}

Ships (and their captains):

Westfalen: Kapit?n Zs Bauer {Hermann, 1875-1958, char Adm zS aD}

Rheinland: Kapit?n zS Toussaint {Ernst, 1873--, Kapt zS aD}

Posen: Kapit?n zS von Krosigh {Wilhelm, 1871-1953, char KontAdm zS aD}

Kolberg: Kapit?n zS Kurt Frank {1875--, Kapt zS aD}

Nautilus: Korvettenkapit?n Franz Pfeiffer

M?we: Kapit?nleutnant dR Lauterbach

Stralsund: Fregattenkapit?n Bendemann

T 139: Oberleutnant zS dR Siemer

T 143: Kapit?nleutnant dR Mudrich

T 155: Kapit?nleutnant Hugo

1 160 (later T 152): Oberleutnant zS Nolda

Steigerwald: Kapit?nleutnant dR W. M?ller (also commander of the 3. Blockade Breaker Group)

Giffhorn: Kapit?nleutnant dR Kr?tzfeld

Franken: Kapit?nleutnant dR Berg

Solingen: Kapit?nleutnant dR Hiller

Beowulf: Kapit?nleutnant dR Wilde

T 141: Oberleutnant zS du Roveray

A 62: Kapit?nleutnant A. Doflein (also commander of the II Mine-seeking Flotilla (?))

M 89: Leutnant zS Schmall

M 88: Kapit?nleutnant Tschirsch

M 78: Leutnant zS dR Voss

M 70: Oberleutnant zS dR Emde

A 81: Oberleutnant zS dR Dau {Otto, 1886--, EK1, HH}

T 67: Leutnant zS dR B?sig

Direktor Polis: Oberleutnant zS dR Sachse

Hameln: Oberleutnant zS dR Daumeyer

Claus Groth: Leutnant zS dR Meyer

Duisburg: Leutnant zS dR Sch?ller

Ammon: Kapit?nleutnant dR Heimreich

Inkula: Oberleutnant zS dR Schulte

Indianola: Kapit?nleutnant dR Warnke (also the acting commander of the 6. Mine-clearing Half-flotilla (?))

O. 5 Hochkamp: Leutnant zS dR Kaiser

O. 1 Framsen: Leutnant zS dR Albrecht

O. 10 Bayern: Leutnant zS dR Pezenburg

Bahia Castillos: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Meyer {Not in MERL}

Buenos Aires: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Ihnen {Not in MERL}

Cassel: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Vogt {Not in MERL}

Frankfurt: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) G?rchen {Not in MERL}

Schleswig: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Rehm {Not in MERL}

Chemnitz: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Mitzlaff {Not in MERL}

Hannover: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Feyen {Not in MERL}

Habsburg: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Filler {Not in MERL}

Altenburg: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Willemsen {Not in MERL}

Giessen: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Lindemann {Not in MERL}

Badenia: Hilfs-Kapit?nleutnant (?) Krause {Not in MERL}

Equity: F?hnrich zS dSWII Schubert (see below about equity) {Paul, 1881--, on ?Equity? February to November 1918, char Oberlt zS dSWII aD}

Arnold K?pke: Euler {Not in MERL}

Helene Hugo Stinnes: Deckoffizier-Ingeneur (??) Krempel {Not in MERL}

Adeline Hugo Stinnes: Deckoffizier-Ingeneur (??) Howelmann {Not in MERL}

Westphalia: Captain (what?) Berendt {Not in MERL}

M?we (another one): Captain (?) Beutel {Not in MERL}

Viola: Dr. Dumas (Hospital Ship) {Wilhelm, 1873--, Marine-Stabsarzt dR aD}

Imperator: Dr. Valentin (Hospital Ship) {Erwin, 1883--, Marine-Oberstabsarzt aD 1924}

Various Officers:

Fregattenkapit?n von Rosenberg (PlM, chief of the Baltic Sea Mine-seeking Detachment)

Kapit?nleutnant Hermann M?ller (chief of 9. Mine-seeking Half-flotilla (?)) {name? no match found in MERL}

Kapit?nleutnant v. Zitzewitz (chief of 4. Mine-seeking Half-flotilla (?))

Korvettenkapit?n August Altvater (chief of 2. Mine-Clearing Division (?))

Kapit?nleutnant zS dSWI Wiehr (chief of Mine-clearing Half-detachment ) {Paul, 1868-after 1939, char KorvKapt d SW1 aD, retired as Commodore of the Hamburg America Line, see his name on a search on this website for medal bar = EK2, HH, MK2, HCX, XX, WF3a, SA3a-- NO Finnish awards}

Kapit?nleutnant Weigden (chief of III Mine-clearing Flotilla (?)) {Not in MERL}

Kapit?nleutnant dSWI Sch?nian (chief of 6. Mine-clearing Half-flotilla) {Willy, 1882- died in Libau 25 July 1918}

Leutnant zS Bachmann (Submarine-chaser School (?))

Kapit?n zS Irmer (Chief of Transport Flotilla)

Korvettenkapit?n W?lfing (Admirality-officer of the Transport Flotilla) {Paul W?lfing (von Ditten 1922), 1880-1953, Vizeadm zV aD}

Korvettenkapit?n Robertson (chief of Transport Flotilla's I Group)

Korvettenkapit?n Rebensburg (chief of Transport Flotilla's II Group)

Fregattenkapit?n Keller (chief of Transport Flotilla's III Group)

Kapit?nleutnant Brunswig (Landings-chief of SMS Westfalen) {Hermann, 1883-- , char KorvKapt zS aD, Meck-StrelitzK1 & 2, EK2, BrK}

Kapit?nleutnant Eckerlin (Landings-chief of SMS Posen) {Richard, 1880--, char FregKapt zS aD 1923, EK2, OK2, OV3b}

Korvettenkapit?n Paschen (chief of Detachment von Brandenstein's Naval Transport Detachement)

Kapit?nleutnant dR Bartz (Naval Officer of Hanko) {Rudolf, 1878-- , KaptLt zS dR aD, EK2}

Fregattenkapit?n Willy Meyer (Naval Officer of Helsinki, later replaced by Kapit?nleutnant Wustrau)

Korvettenkapit?n Reuter (German naval Attach? at Helsinki)

Konteradmiral von Usslar (commander of Baltic navy since 1 June) {Ludolf yes Ludolf, 1867-1939, char VizeAdm zS aD}

Hauptmann dR of Marine-Infantry (?) Brink {?? Christian Brinck, 1871--, MERL shows only 1. Ers See Baon so ???}

Kapit?nleutnant dR Harder { ?? KaptLt zS dR Friedrich, 1878-- , Vorpostenhalbflotille Ost, EK1, MK2, LD2}

Oberleutnant zS Gustav Pezold (Made two trips as commander of "Equity" to Finland before the war, transporting weapons and j?gers to Finland, so probably got an CoL of some sort too)

{Not in MERL}

Hi Ronny (and rest).

That's one though badge to find information of. The best description is in Baron Ernst Fabian Wrede's 1945 book "Finlands Utm?rkelsetecken' which is, quite conveniently, in swedish. As my swedish is far from perfect, especially when it comes to more technical stuff, maybe you can make a quick update about it?

Det nya krig, som begynte den 22 juni 1941, gav anledning till att ?verbef?lhavaren ?r 1944 instiftade ett nytt invalidm?rke. Stadganden f?r detsamma ha dock ej ?nnu blivit slutligt fastst?llda.

Detta m?rke ?r f?rf?rdigat av oxiderad, f?rsilvrad m?ssing och har formen av en stiliserad krans, som m?ter 36 mm i diameter. Innanf?r kransen finnes ett frihetskors av samma metal av dimensionen 24x24 mm. I korsvinklarna ?ro tvenne sv?rd med avbrutna spetsar placerade. P? fr?nsidan ?r upptill ?rtalet, d? invaliden s?rats eller skadats, angivet och nedtill m?rkets l?pande nummer. ?ven detta m?rke skulle f?rlanas i samma utf?rande, oberoende av det antal s?r invaliden ?dragit sig.

Det stilfulla tecknet har komponerats av professor Carolus Lindberg.

J?mtlikt ett f?rslag till best?mmelser f?r detsamma skulle ?ven det nya m?rket p? samma s?tt som 1939-1940 ?rs krigs invalidm?rke f?rl?nas av ?verbef?lhavaren p? framst?llning av styrelsen f?r krigsinvalidernas Br?draf?rbund.

Ber?ttigad att erh?lla m?rket skulle den vara, som under 1939-1940 ?rs krig eller 1941-1944 ?rs krig blivit s?rad, eller vilken bevislingen blivit genom i kriget ?dragna anstr?ngningar best?ndigt sjuk eller direkt skadats genom kriget och vilken h?rj?mte uppfyllde f?ljande villkor:

a) godk?nts s?som medlem av Krigsinvalidernas Br?daf?rbund samt

b) f?tt sin arbetsf?rm?ga genom ?dragna s?rskador eller sjukdom nedsatt med minst 30 % och vilken p? grund h?rav j?mlikt krigsolycksfallslagen beviljats livstidspenison eller kunnat erh?lla s?dan.

Efter att ha inh?mtat inspekt?rens f?r invalidv?rden eller arm?ns ?verl?kares utl?tande kan Krigsinvalidernas Br?daf?rbund j?mlikt f?rslaget till stadganden f?resl? tilldelande av m?rket ?ven ?t s?dana invalider, vilkas arbetsf?rm?ga ej nedsatts med mins 30 %, d?rest dem definitiv beviljats livstidspension, ?vensom ?t alla, som blivit amputerade redan f?rran slutligt utslag om deras livstidspension fattats, under f?ruts?ttning att invaliditeten stiger till minst 30 %.

P? samma s?tt som tidigare skulle person som gjort sig skyldig till en soldat?ran befl?cknade handling eller en invalids anseende neds?ttande g?rning, vara ?v?rdig att erh?lla tecknet, och hade han redan erh?llit m?rket, kunde han d?mas detsamma f?rlustig.

Invalidm?rket skulle till milit?r uniform b?ras p? mitten av vapenrockens h?gra br?stficka eller p? motsvarande st?lle. Till annan uniform eller till civil dr?kt skulle det ?ven b?ras p? samma s?tt. Till civil dr?kt kunde m?rke h?rj?mte b?ras i miniatyrformat, i vilket fall det f?stes p? h?gra rockuppslaget.

Invalidm?rke skulle, s?som framg?r redan av dess ben?mning f?rlanas ?ven deltagare i vinterkriget. Utdelandet och anv?ndandet av 1939-1940 ?rs krigs invalidm?rke skulle j?mlikt f?rslaget till stadgandena f?r det nya m?rket upph?ra. Styrelsen f?r Krigsinvalidernas Br?draf?rbund r.f. skulle ?ligga att ?vervaka m?rkets anv?ndning samt att infordra ?terst?llande av det gamla tecknet.

Pete

What is that ribbon in last place? I can't, for the life of me, place it.

Also, can anyone more familiar with the situation in Finland comment as to just how big the German involvement actually was. How big a pool of officers of sufficient rank to net a 1st class would have been over there?

The last ribbon is the 1938 commemorative medal for the conquest of Helsinki.

There's a thread going on about German officers in Finland at the central powers awards forum. Maybe the that Looking at the period photos, that particular combination seems to have been pretty usual among the officers of the Saxon karabiniers, but then again, the photos show everyone of them with some sort of cross of liberty too.

Pete

Wasn't the actual Wehrwolf standart for sale a while ago, or do I remember incorrectly?

Pete

Hi,

how many pages does it have?

best

Chris

It has 283 pages. Maybe we should switch to PM, since this this is a bit off-topic?

Pete

Rick: Great info on Crantz, thank you. Why it doesn't seem surprising at all, that you have that piece of paper, and Crantz just happened to be a s:t Tamara -guy?

Chris: Yes, I have that book. I actually stole it from my local library, back in the days! (ok, I know, that was bad, but it's almost impossible to find) Even though my german isn't good enough to understand the complete book, it has everything you need to know about Maximilian Bayer. Do you want me to look for something?

Pete