Pete A

Hi Pete..

I have the iron cross doc to Max Bayer... you must have something n him ;-)

Oh my god! That's probably one of the top pieces of militaria I can think of.. You know, Bayer's family donated his awards and sword to the Finnish War Museum, but apparently they forgot the documents!

Finnish j?gers are my main thing, just what you want to know? For a quick bio see :

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Bayer

Pete

Some additions..

von Keudell's (3. garde-uhlanen) first name seems to have been Rudolf

Lassen's (11. radfahr) first name was Peter

During the summer of 1918 major Butz took charge of Finnish artillery-training, and was replaced by major Laporte

Oberst Konrad von Redern (1866-1920) was the Chief of Finnish General Staff 5/6.8.1918-13.12.1918.

Under him 94 "specialists" and 50 NCOs & other ranks were given positions in the Finnish units. Among them were:

Major von Hagen

Hauptmann Karl W?lfert

Hauptmann Henkell

Leutnant K?rner was the Liaison-officer of the Ostseedivision in Finnish 1st Division

Leutnant K?berling was the Liaison-officer of the Ostseedivision in Finnish 2nd Division

Leutnant Merkel (S?chs. Karabinier) was the Liaison-officer of the Ostseedivision in Finnish 3rd Division

Finnish Mountain Artillery Regiment was commanded by German major Joseph Schleutker 11.1918-7.1.1919

And those JB27 guys:

Ausfeld's first names were Ernst Vilhelm Edward (a mistake? Or did he just use 'Eduard'? That's how he is written in every book I've seen) He commanded the Finnish Mountain Brigade 4.7.1918-5.1.1919

K?nnecke was the Chief of staff of Finnish Mountain Brigade

Colonel von Coler commanded the Finnish 2nd Division 8.6.1918-6.7.1918

Major Crantz's first name seems to have been Werner?

.. oh well, that's about all I got on the German land forces. Rest is up to those who are more knowledgeable.

You guys might be interested to know that there is a medal of Honor for sale at the Swedish Probus auctionhouse

Too bad that they seem to have switched high-quality color photos to a crappy black and white pdf-catalogue. but there it is anyway:

324 MEDAL OF HONOR, USA

Type 1 (1862-1904) Bronze, with Photo, eagles left wing

with old repair

Proviniens: Fredrik Bergendahl, born in Sweden 1802, dead

1886 V?rg?rda, Sweden.

Private Band 4th United States Cavalry, At Staked Plains

Tex 8 December 1874. Date of issue: 13 October 1875

"Gallantry in a long chase after Indians"

15000 (1575euro)

Pete

On 6.2.1918 following former officers of 27. J?ger-bataillon got the permission to resign from the German Army, and traveled 2.3.1918 to Finland via Sweden:

Hauptmann Eduard Ausfeld

Hauptmann Ulrich von Coler

Oberleutnant Rainer Stahel

On 20.2.1918 following former officers of 27. J?ger-bataillon got the permission to resign from the German Army, and traveled 15.3.1918 to Finland via Sweden:

Leutnant Hermann Huyssen

Leutnant Paul Sievert

Leutnant Albert Mellis

Leutnant Hans K?nnecke

Hauptmann (later Major in German (?) and Colonel in Finnish army) Eduard Ausfeld (1885-1946) was the leader of 4th J?ger-company and later the battalion-commander of JB27. In Finland he was given the rank of Lt. Colonel and the command of 1st Finnish J?ger-brigade. He held COL2X and COL4X (for "personal bravery") After the war he was for a short time married to baroness Ruth Munck, who was a finnish volunteer nurse in the JB27. During WW2 he was in German foreign ministry (?) and had something to do with the forming of Finnish-German alliance in 1940-1941. Photos taken during this time show him with a

neck-order of the White Rose of Finland, probably a commander class.

Hauptmann Ulrich von Coler, born 1885. Promoted to Finnish Colonel on 6.3.1918. (most likely Ausfeld got his too) Von Coler was the former commander of 3rd J?ger-company of JB27. During the war of 1918 he commanded the 2nd Finnish J?ger-brigade. He stayed in Finland after the war, and when the Germans had to leave the army poisitions he transfered into the Civil Guard. In 1926 he is shown as a district-commander of the Southern-Uusimaa Civil Guard District. I guess he was with the CG until the mid-30's. During 1918 he COL2x and COL4X (for "personal bravery"). On 28.4.1942 he received COL1X. On 24.6.1942 he got the

Officers Class of the Order of Romanian Crown with swords.

As for Stahel, there is a good bio of him at the "Axis Biographical Research"

http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/WEHRMACH...HEL_RAINER.html (although, the date of his Finnish Major-promotion can't be true, the real one is probably the same date as von Coler got his)

During the war of 1918 Huyssen was a Captain in the Finnish army and the commander of 8th J?gerbatallion

Paul Sievert was a former officer of the Battery of JB27, later the commander of battalions Abteilung J?ger-zu-Pferde. He held the rank of a Finnish Captain and was a commander of artillery batallion.

Albert Mellis was a former commander of engineer-company of JB27. No idea what he did in Finland in 1918, but during WW2 he was here again, as a Colonel of the Luftwaffe and the German commander of Malmi airport.

Hans K?nnecke served in the 4th J?ger-company of JB27, that's all I got of him.

Any further information about any of these former JB27 Officers would be appreciated.

Also interesting character is Hauptmann Carl Seber, who was the second Commander of Finnish Aviation Forces 28.4.1918-13.12.1918 (The first one was Swedish Captain Allan Hygerth between 10.3.-28.4.1918). Seber is credited as being the creator of the Finnish Air Force. He had received the Saxon St. Henry on 4.6.1915 whilst serving in Feldflieger-Abteilung 23, and Finns gave him COL2X, which was elevated into COL1X on 23.10.1941. By then Seber was again in Finland, this time as a some sort of an liaison-officer of the Lufwaffe. {Seber was a Prussian, making Saxony's top award an anomaly-- born in Trier 1883. NOT a General in WW2.}

Major iG W. Crantz was the German liaison-officer in Mannerheims HQ during 1918. Anything on him?

.. except that I can't seem to edit those posts any more.

Hauptmann Carp (Liaison-officer of Ostseedivison HQ in ?land islands) (von Carp?)

Oberleutnant V?lkerling (German commander of Suursaari island)

Oberleutnant Danes (Staff of Det. Brandenstein)

2. Pionier-Bataillon 3. Kompanie:

Leutnant v. Ahlfen (commander of some sort of railway-engineer detachement, later commander of an armored train)

11. Radfahr-Kompanie:

Leutnant Mieth (?)

2. J?ger-bataillon 2. Radfahr-Kompanie:

Leutnant Jeschkeit

Offizierstellwellter Zilgit

2. J?ger-bataillon 1. Radfahr-Kompanie:

Leutnant Graf von Bernstorff

3. Reserve-J?ger-Bataillon:

OO Leutnant Bloch was born 15.5.1892, killed 2.5.1918 in Lahti

commander of 3. company, Leutnant Bohne might have been Oberleutnant

14. J?ger-Bataillon:

MG-officer Hans-Joachim von Lowtzow was born 9.8.1889, died 16.7.1918 (in Finland?)

1. Garde-Ulanen-Regiment:

Leutnant v.d. Knesebeck

Leutnant von Brauschweig (MG-Squadron)

Leutnant von Heimburg (MG-Squadron)

Leutnant Wolfgang Bogislaw von Gruben (4. Squadron, 28.8.1895-12.4.1918 in Helsinki)

Leutnant von Rochow (4. Squadron)

Leutnant von Flemming (2. Squadron)

Vizewachtmaister Behrend (2. Squadron)

3. Garde-Ulanen-Regiment:

Leutnant Wolfgang Gans Edler Herr zu Putlitz (5. Squadron ?)

Leutnant Erbprinz zu Wied

Leutnant von Strantz (4. Squadron)

Vizewachtmeister L?sekrug (1. squadron)

Leutnant von Brandenstein (2. Squadron, a lot of von Brandensteins in Finland!)

S?chsische Karabinier-Regiment:

Major von Reden committed a suicide

Leutnant von Leonhardi (1. Squadron)

Leutnant Merkel (1. Squadron)

Leutnant Riedel (1. Squadron)

Leutnant von Luttitz (1. Squadron)

Mechelke (1. Squadron)

Leutnant Frentzel (2. Squadron)

Leutnant Mummert (2. Squadron)

Leutnant Hildebrand (3. Squadron)

Leutnant Herfurth (4. Squadron)

Leutnant Korner (MG-Squadron)

Leutnant dR Gottfr. Theod. Johannes Lange (28.5.1896-27.4.1918 in Tuulos)

Leutnant Eisentraut

Vizefeldwebel Schm?lling

Geissel

4. J?ger-Bataillon:

commander of 1. radfahr-kompanie is either Kuhlgratz or Kuhlgatz

Leutnant von Paris (4. Co)

Boettcher (3. Co ?)

H?tting (1.MG Co ?)

228. Geb-MG-Abt:

Leutnant dL Walter Willi Klimkeit (13.4.1895-29.4.1918 in Tuulos)

2. Bayerische Gebirgs-Artillerie-Abteilung:

commander of 15. Batterie, Oberleutnant Greim was born 5.10.1888, killed 28.4.1918 in Lammi)

Leutnant Oppenheim

7. Battery:

Leutnant Moser

Leutnant Johler

Leutnant Gran

Leutnant Anwander

Leutnant Schwartz

Leutnant Kachler

Leutnant Beyschlag

Doctor: Dr. Schneider

Vet: Dr. Seberich

225. Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment:

Commander of 1. Bataillon, Hauptmann Reuter was born in 1892, killed 1.5.1918 in Lahti)

Minethhrower-officer, Leutnant Elskamp was born 26.7.1891, killed 29.4.1918 in Lahti)

Leutnant dR Josef Sack (1895-1.5.1918 in Lahti)

Leutnant Biermann (Wounded at Uusikyl? 15.4.1918)

8. Feldartillerie-Regiment:

Oberleutnant Scheukel

Leutnant Ney (Wounded at Uusikyl? 15.4.1918)

Von Luck got COL1X, Hamilton, Schweinsberg, Reden, Schulenburg, & Falkenhorst got COL2X. On a pre-1939 photo GdI Karmann is wearing COL1X (!!)

Glad this helps. I'll add some more information in the same manner ({}). Also some platoon-level officers will follow. But navy.. now that's a bitch. All those weird ranks and positions drive me crazy, so you'll have to wait for that one for a while.

Pete

DETACHEMENT BRANDENSTEIN

STAFF OF 3. GARDE-KAVALLERIE-BRIGADE

Commander: Oberst Freiherr Otto von Brandenstein

ADC: Oberleutnant Freiherr von Esebeck

Ordonance-officer: Oberleutnant dR Cohnitz

Ordonance-officer: Oberleutnant dR Lehmann

225. RESERVE-INFANTERIE-REGIMENT

Commander: Oberstleutnant von Luck

ADC: Leutnant Sauerbrey

Ordonance-officer: Leutnant dR Ziegler

MG-officer: leutnant dR Paul Schmidt

Doctor: Dr. Heider

1. Bataillon

Commander: Hauptmann dL Fritz Reuter (KIA 1.5.1918, Replaced by Hauptmann Schrader)

ADC: Leutnant dR Diekwisch

Supply-officer: Leutnant dL Pithan

Minethrower-officer: Leutnant dR Wilhelm Elskamp (KIA 29.4.1918)

Doctor: Dr. Empting

1. Company: Leutnant dR Bleckmann (until 11.4, 11.4-24.4 Feldwebelleutnant dL Koch, 24.4-7.6 Leutnant dR Knoch)

2. Company: Leutnant dR Fischmann (26.4-1.5 Leutnant dR Rolef)

3. Company: Leutnant dR Volkening

4. Company: Leutnant dR Idel

1. MG-company: Leutnant dR Grotkus

2. Bataillon

Commander: Hauptmann dR Carnuth

ADC: Leutnant dR Stienen

Minethrower-officer: Feldwebelleutnant dL Schleef

Doctor: Dr. v. d. Steinen

5. Company: Leutnant dR Nickel

6. Company: Leutnant dR Unverzagt

7. Company: Leutnant dR S?vern

8. Company: Leutnant dR Bruno M?ller

2. MG-company: Leutnant dL Schimmel

3. Bataillon

Commander: Rittmeister Dulier

ADC: Leutnant dL Welle

Minethrower-officer: Feldwebelleutnant dL G?bel

Doctor: Dr. Lemmel

9. Company: Leutnant dR Feldmann

10. Company: Oberleutnant dR Michelmann

11. Company: Leutnant dR Platte

12. Company: Leutnant dR N?bel

3. MG-company: Leutnant dR Wildsch?tz

5. Radfahr-Bataillon

Commander: Hauptmann von Wilamowitz-Moellendorff

54. Radfahr-Kompanie: Leutnant Misgeld

14. J?ger-bataillon 1. Radfahr-Kompanie: Hauptmann Schrader

6. J?ger-bataillon 1. Radfahr-Kompanie: Leutnant dR Harbeck

6. J?ger-bataillon 2. Radfahr-Kompanie:

2. Leib-Husaren-Regiment 4. Eskadron (half): Oberleutnant von Althen

8. Feldartillerie-Regiment 6. Batterie: Hauptmann dR K?hler

8. Feldartillerie-Regiment 7. Batterie: Hauptmann dR R?nnefahrt

78. Reserve-Kompanie (half):

550. Wireless Transmiter-station (?):

331. Sanit?r-Kompanie (half):

Fernsprecherzug (half):

OSTSEEDIVISION

STAFF OF 12. LANDWEHR-DIVISION

Commander: Generalmajor Graf R?diger von der Goltz

General Staff-officer (Ia): Hauptmann iG Friedrich Karmann (Replaced in June 1918 by Hauptmann iG Nikolaus von Falkenhorst)

ADC: Rittmeister Heckmann

Ordonance-officer: Hauptmann von Kaisenberg

Ordonance-officer: Leutnant Freiherr von Uckermann

Ordonance-officer: Leutnant Scheufele

HQ Commandant: Rittmeister dR Matthes

Division Intendant(?): Intendantcounsellor (??) Vogel {Intendanturrat & ks Hptm dR Arno Vogel, born 1880, Saxon, served 1900-. SA3aXmKr, EK1, S-XXV, SLD2, PrRKM3, SMK, BA5X. 1929 ObRegRat Versorgungsamt Chemnitz}

Divisional Doctor: Dr. Dannehl

Divisional Vet: Dr. Scheferling, Substitute: Dr. Ohm

Divisional Judge: Military Court-martial Counsellor (argh??) Hauptmann dR Hauger

Gas-officer: Leutnant dR am Ende

Transport-offcier: Leutnant dL Klocke

Engineer-officer: Leutnant Schl?ter

Car Detachement: Oberleutnant dR Koch

Communications-officer: Leutnant dR Dettman

Interprener-officer: Leutnant dR Arnicke

Feldpost 957: (some weird postal rank) Sillus

Divisional Priest: Siebold (Ev.Luth.), Kreutz (Cath.)

Attached to Divisional HQ:

Representative of Commander of Military Railways (?): Hauptmann Maenss

Liaison-officer of the Army High Command: Hauptmann iG Thiem

Liaison-officer of the Admirality: Kapit?nleutnant Graf von Platen{Magnus Graf von Platen-Hallermund, *7.6.1880-"†"21.7.1943 Hamburg--killed in bombing? EK2, XXV}

Liaison-officer of the Finnish High Command: Eversti (Colonel) Thesleff

On Disposal: Major Graf Gilbert Hamilton

95. RESERVE-INFANTERIE-BRIGADE

Commander: Generalmajor Wolf

ADC: Oberleutnant Bochow

1. Ordonance-officer: Oberleutnant Mechtersheimer

2. Ordonance-officer: Oberleutnant von Glasenapp

3. Reserve-J?ger-Bataillon

Commander: Major Graf von der Schulenburg-Lieberose

ADC: Leutnant dR Fritze

Ordonance-officer: Leutnant dR Georg Bloch (KIA 2.5.1918)

MG-Officer: Oberleutnant dL Hunterm?ller

1. Company: Leutnant dR Gerhard Bohne

2. Company: Leutnant dR Repetzky (Walter?)

3. Company: Leutnant dR Walter Bohne

4. Company: Leutnant dR Max Wedde

1. MG-company: Leutnant Bock

2. MG-company: Leutnant dL Waischwillat

4. J?ger-Bataillon

Commander: Hauptmann Ott

ADC: Leutnant von W?lcknitz

Ordonance-officer: Leutnant dR Reuss

MG-Officer: Hauptmann dR Neumann

1. Company: Leutnant dR Brohm

2. Company: Leutnant dR Kybitz

3. Company: Oberleutnant Scharf

4. Company: Leutnant dR Grimm

1. MG-company: Leutnant Richard Schmidt

2. MG-company: Leutnant dR Beck

1. Bicycle-company: Leutnant dR Kuhlgratz

2. Bicycle-company: Leutnant dR Koch

14. J?ger-Bataillon

Commander: Major Freiherr Schenk zu Schweinsberg

ADC: Leutnant von Felbert

Ordonance-officer: Leutnant von H?lst

MG-Officer: Leutnant dR von Lowtzow

1. Company: Hauptmann dR Schweinfurth

2. Company: Oberleutnant dR von B?low

3. Company: Leutnant Koch

4. Company: Leutnant dR Konrad

1. MG-company: Leutnant dR Hartmuth

2. MG-company: Leutnant dR Hess

2. J?ger-Bataillon 1. Radfahr-Kompanie: Hauptmann Roeder

2. J?ger-Bataillon 2. Radfahr-Kompanie: Oberleutnant Hepe

11. Radfahr-Kompanie: Leutnant dR Lassen

228. Gebirgs-MG-Abteilung: Oberleutnant Schmitt

229. Gebirgs-MG-Abteilung: Leutnant dR Paulssen

2. GARDE-KAVALLERIE-BRIGADE

Commander: Oberst von Tschirschky und von Bogendorff

ADC: Oberleutnant von der Groben

Ordonance-officer: Oberleutnant dR Graf von Br?hl

1. Garde-Ulanen-Regiment

Commander: Major Halling

ADC: Oberleutnant von Arnim

Ordonance-officer: Leutnant von Braunschweig-Vollrath

2. Squadron: Rittmeister dR von Colmar

3. Squadron: Rittmeister von Saldern

4. Squadron: Rittmeister Graf von Seherr-Thoss

5. Squadron: Rittmeister Erbprinz (?) zu Bentheim und Steinfurth

MG-Squadron: Rittmeister von Loebenstein

3. Garde-Ulanen-Regiment

Commander: Major Freiherr Lothar von Brandenstein

ADC: Leutnant Mumm von Schwarzenstein

Ordonance-officer: Leutnant von Zitzewitz

1. Squadron: Rittmeister von Jagow

2. Squadron: Rittmeister Freiherr von Berchem-K?nigsfeld

4. Squadron: Rittmeister Graf von Plessen

5. Squadron: Rittmeister Graf zu Solms-Baruth

MG-Squadron: Rittmeister von Keudell

S?chsische Karabinier-Regiment

Commander: Major Godert von Reden{ did not use first two names Friedrich Wulbrand, *8.4.1872-†22.1.1919, StHR,SV3aX, X to SA3a, X to SWF-R1}

ADC: Leutnant von Schierbrand{Helmut, SA3bX}

Ordonance-officer: Leutnant Guenther{Ernst, SA3bX}

1. Squadron: Rittmeister Merz{Georg, SA3aXmKr}

2. Squadron: Leutnant dR Hahne{Wilhelm *10.3.1893, StHR, SA3bX}

3. Squadron: Rittmeister Albrecht Georg Karl Jules Wilhelm Freiherr von dem Bussche-Streithorst (KIA 29.4.1918){*2.4.1888, SV3bX, SA3bX, EK2, BrK, SWF-R2X}

4. Squadron: Rittmeister von Ehrenkrook{Walter Ulric Adolf, *1883 alive 1954 SA3aX, X to SWF-R2, char. Major aD}

MG-Squadron: Oberleutnant Schintling-Horny{Walter, SV3bX, SA3bX as just "Horny" in 1915}

3. K?rassier-Regiment 2. Squadron: Rittmeister Freiherr von Esebeck

ARTILLERY ETC.

2. Bayerische Gebirgs-Artillerie-Abteilung

Commander: Major Hans Butz (also divisional artillery-officer)

ADC: Leutnant dR M?ller

1. Ordonance-officer: Leutnant dR Beeri

2. Ordonance-officer: Leutnant dR Haug

7. Battery: Hauptmann dR Beschke (acting chief: Oberleutnant von Zwehl)

8. Battery: Hauptmann Wulfert

15. Battery: Oberleutnant Ludwig Greim (KIA 28.4.1918)

2. Garde-Feldartillerie-Regiment 4. Batterie: Leutnant dR Moldenhauer

14. Reserve-Feldartillerie-Regiment 1. Batterie: Leutnant dR Hausbrand

14. Reserve-Feldartillerie-Regiment 1. Batterie Kolonne: Oberleutnant dR von Viereck

Engineer-Landings-Company (?): Hautpmann dR M?ller

2. Pionier-Bataillon 3. Kompanie: Leutnant Schl?ter (Attached to Div. HQ, acting commander: Leutnant Kaliebe)

9. Pionier-Ersatz-Bataillon 1. Zug (?): Leutnant Brammann

512. Fernsprecher-Abteilung: Leutnant dR Brandt

512. Light Radio-Detachement (?): Leutnant dR Gaus

3. Film Group (?): Leutnant dR Immler

208. Armee-Kraftfahr-Abteilung (?): Oberleutnant dR Koch (Attached to Div. HQ, acting commander: Leutnant dR Kettner)

421. Park-something-column (Can't translate): Leutnant Howe

77. Field-Bakery-Column (?): Rittmeister dL Schmidt

23. Bavarian Field-hospital: Dr. Schilcher

556. Sanit?r-Kompanie 1. Zug

326. Etappen-kommandant-office (?)

As per request, I'll start a personnel list of German Officers in Finland in 1918. As the whole thing is translated from finnish, some obscure ranks and units might be incorrectly translated or missing. Also, the list lacks most of the first names. Any corrections and/or additions are more than welcome.

I'll start with the Ostseevision, while Detachement Brandenstein, Sonderverbande der Ostsee and some lower-rank officers & miscellaneous persons will follow later.

Pete

That would be GREAT!

Start a new thread and don't worry about translating any weird rank titles-- that is the kind of thing that can always be editted later. Quite a few went on to interesting WW2 careers-- like the unlucky Luftwaffe General Stahel-- so THAT would turn out to be a MONSTER special topic with all sorts of biographical material added.

All right. Good thing you mentioned Stahel, I would have otherwise forgotten those Germans who were outside the 'offical expeditionforce'. Not that there were many of them, but still. And all those who came after may 1918 to act as instructors for the new finnish army. Uhh, i'm starting think this wasn't such a good idea after all. Anyway, a new topic coming up.

Pete

You have a COMPLETE list of German officers there in 1918?

Unfortunately, not complete. But I do have the basic structure down to the company commanders and commanders of the smaller independent units. In addition to this, names of some lower-rank officers whom are collected from various books. Out of 500 army officers I have some 200. And from the navy, around 130 names. Also I have the complete list of all the Germans who died in Finland in 1918. It's going to take a couple of night of translating though, since the lists are in finnish ..and I have no idea what some naval or beamten (or worse yet, naval beamten) ranks would be in german, since even some of their finnish equivalents are nowdays obsolete. But give me couple of days and I'll see what I can come up to.

Pete

Could it have been a Russian Civil War era award?

--Chris

Well, anything is possible. The white commanders awarded old imperial orders, even the prestigeous St. George, quite loosely. But the again, the other two awards being a 1897 centenary and that weird Hohenzollern, a 1918-1920 russian award would seem quite odd?

Pete

I'm not sure of the circumstances under which a German would have earned swords for this Russian decoration. In the war with Japan Germans were observers. Perhaps a crown device.

True, it is very hard to think of a "military matter" where a German would have earned the swords. Perhaps a observing-situation, like you said. But I still think that the crown device can be ruled out, since it was for the Russian subjects only, and besides, it was discontinued in 1874. If this is a Russian St. Anne, I think the 3rd class would be the only option.

Pete

Some posts seem to have disappeared, but I vaguely recall there was some question about the award rolls?

All the awards of the order of the cross of liberty were mentioned in headquarter's orders-of-the-day. These orders-of-the-day can be found in the Finnish War Archives. According to these, Germans (both soldiers and civilians) received 1 239 crosses and 2 266 medals (as per request, no exact numbers/class mentioned). As the actual awards weren't ready yet, every recipient (no matter what nationality) was issued a piece of MOL2 ribbon, which was to be worn on the buttonhole, EK2 style, to show that a person had received an award of the order.(This actually explains why, in German groups, COLs are sometimes found mounted in MOL2 ribbon. For the recipients it was the "original" ribbon) When the awards finally started to arrive from the manufacturers, the officers were usually the first ones to get them, and most Germans seem to have gotten their COLs during the fall of 1918.

BUT, when the Ostseedivision left Finland in November 1918, they took 489 crosses and 13 310 medals (!!) with them. This amount exceeded the strenght of the Division greatly. And even if you count in the Detachement Brandenstein and Sonderverband ser Ostsee, which had left Finland right after the war was over, and didn't thus have the chance to receive their medals, this would still mean that every German who took part in the Finnish campaign would have received some sort of an award of the order. Because these extra medals, the Finnish representatives in Berlin reported already in 1918/1919, that it is impossible to provide an accurate list of all those Germans who have received an award of the order.

Given the fact that the bar has the commorative medal, the recipient must have taken part in the actual fighting? (even though there are exceptions). I could give you a list of the German officers in Finland, if it helps anything?

Pete

St. Anne could have been awarded with swords or with imperial crown (+swords). If this is a St. Anne that was awarded with swords, it might be possible that the recipient has unofficially added them to his bar, to denote this fact. The Russians didn't use ribbon bars and so there was no real devices available. The imperial crown seems unlikely, since it was an additional award for the two highest classes only, and usually awarded only to Russians. Foreigners received diamonds as an additional award for their 1st & 2nd classes.

Pete

There is a one for sale at the next Hermann-Historica auction, lot nr. 900. Says it's the 1st version.

Pete

Claudio: Now, that has to be one of the most bizarre combinations around. I bet it hasn't seen a lot of wear inside the US borders, though.

Rick: Yes, it appears so, since the Saxon Karabiniers was one of those regiments where almost all officers almost certrainly got some sort of a cross of liberty, and he doesn't seem to have one. They did perform quite well, but also took some severe beating, so perhaps there was a need for promotions.

btw, can you give more information about your von Bernstorff bar?

Maybe a bit off-topic, but what was the criteria for these war-time awards for band members? Did they get them for just playing music, or did they participate in combat also?

True. And what comes to wearing the St. George, we have to remember that it was the highest bravery award of Russia. Even the Russian regulations required it to be worn all the time, and it was independent of all ranks of precedence. I guess once you had really earned something in the field of battle, you were more likely to keep it, unlike those novelty awards given for lounge-lizarding and for just-being-in-the-right-place-at-the-right-time, that could be dumped whenever few empires happened to collapse.

Anyway, to bring this thread back on track, I happened to stumble upon a picture (a bad scan, i know.. let's see if this attachment-thing even works) of certain Leutnant a.D. Otto Kunkel of S?chsiche Karabinier-Regiment, who is wearing two bars (most likely, and correctly, Etel?-Suomi & Lemp??l?-Lahti) on his Liberation War commemorative medal. As the Picture is scanned from his article in the 1938 book "Die Einnahme von Helsinki-Helsingfors 12.4.1918", he probably got the commemorative medal of Conquest of Helsinki too, to spice up his already quite impressive rack of medals.

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Very nice bars, Claudio! It's especially nice to see the ribbon bow in Jantzens VR2. Usually German bars seem to lack it, even though it was an essential part of the order, distinguishing an actual combat award. This custom came to Finland from Russia, where in 1857 a ribbon bow was added to distinguish the difference between those awards given for bravery and those given for military merits (with swords) during peace-time.

And while we are in russian awards, I don't think it would have been stange for Jantzen to wear his St. Anne next to Finnish awards, since many Finnish ex-imperial officers did so themselves. Most notably Marshall Mannerheim, who chose to wear his St. George 4th class right after his Finnish awards. See here and

here.

- Pete

I was also interested of this piece, since the only PlM-wearing GL Frhr. von Brandenstein who i could think of, was the very Otto who also fought in Finland in 1918. So, I was just wondering.. everybody seems to think that the date engraved is the awarding date. But has anybody checked if the name and corps actually match? Because, if there is nothing else wrong with this cross, could the '1st of August' actually mean the beginning date of the war? I mean, if the fake-engraver went through the trouble of getting the name and amy corps correct, why would he then do a bogus date? Again, just wondering..

Pete

As stated, the first issue of medals began after the institution of 10.9.1918. The Documents didn't accompany the medals until 1.7.1919. before that that the medals were issued without the document. The applications were prepared and presented by the Office of Awards of the War Ministry. The Dead-line for applications was 1.11.1919. During this "actual issuing" some 90 000 medals were handed out.

The first issue of the medal in 1919-1920 didn't work out quite as well as it was planned. The news about the medal did not reach all those who were eligible, especially in the remote areas of the country (not to mention those who had alrady left the country). And many of those who knew about the medal, simply might have just forgotten about it. Also, some application lists came after the dead-line. When the first 5- and 10-year anniversaries and re-unions of the war came, many old soldiers were sad to see that they had been left without this "Mannerheim's chest-money" (as it was nick-named) their comrades had. So, when the applications for the medal started to be close to 1000 in 1932, it was decided to continue the issuing.

In 1932 the second issue was ordered. in addition to the 1919-1932 applications, the date 1.6.1933 was set as an dead-line for the new ones. Now the applications were to be sent to the war-archives, and the issuing was to follow the 1919 statutes, with the exception that the medal was no longer to be issued with the heraldic rose.

After this, there was still people who were entitled to the medal, but didn't have it. So, in 1936 it was decided to still continue the issuing, the dead-line now being 21.12.1937. This was probably influenced by the coming 20th anniversary of the war. Even after this, in the years 1958-1966, the liberation war commemorative medals were handed out. During this "continued issuing" some 10 000 medals were given, most of them during 1933-1938.

So, an interesting point regarding your document.. as the statutes said, no rose for the 32-33 issues, but this one clearly was issued with rose! ..maybe the recipient was one of those who were given the medal with rose in 1919, but who never got it before 1933. Even more so, if he was an immigrant. As the Finnish War Archives have all the applications for the medal, your recipient might be identified by them, also to which bar he was entitled to and why.

I'm bad at interpreting that scribble, but it says "(something) annettu 15/5.33"

where "annettu" means "given". I have to dig up some books from storage to see, if they say anything more about how the bars were to be purchased.

btw. the document is signed by Kustaa Mannerheim, "Kustaa" being a finnish form of swedish "Gustaf". This was done to please the finnish-speaking majority, and to bring the "swedish-speaking russian general" more close to the common Finnish soldier.

Pete

Rick, no limitations with the wear of bars. Only one name was was supposed to be engraved to one bar (and that sentence in it's weird finnish form might have led to the confusion of only one bar to be worn). The rose indeed meant that the medal was given as an "award" more than a commemorative medal. I'm not sure what was the criteria for that, but statues said that the recipient must have not received any actual awards of the order of cross of liberty during the war. In the the order of predence the 1918 commemorative medal with rose ranked below the medal of liberty 2nd class but before the medals of the order of the white rose of finland with clasps.

Pete

Yes, as a naval person, he would have technically been right to have only one bar, the 'South Finland' one. The '?sterbottens..' bar was basicly for those men who took part of the initial disarming of the russian troops & garrisons in the Osthrobotnia region, and to my knowledge there were no germans present. So maybe Altvater got mixed with the whole liberation thing, since that's what the germans were doing in Finland in the first place.

Oh, and forgot to mention, bars weren't issued with the medal, but were indeed privately purchased. As the only given regulations were the eleven above mentioned campaigns, and the size of the bar (4mm wide, 31mm long), this naturally resulted dozens of style & font variations. And of course, as the regualtions weren't always followed, people made up their own campaigns and battles they thought they'd deserve to mention in their medal.

Well, a very suitable topic for my first post.. That's a very nice bar you got there Heiko, and maybe i can help you a bit with the finnish campaign bars.

The Commemorative medal of Liberation War was instituted in 10.9.1918. In the statutes there was a mention, that a person who had taken part of the war under the enemy fire, was eligble to wear a small silber bar on the ribbon of the medal, each one bearing the name of a battle he had taken part of. There was eleven of them, in finnish (and in swedish):

Pohjanmaan Vapautus (?sterbottens befriande)

Villpula (Filppula)

Tampere (Tammerfors)

Satakunta (Satakunda)

Savo (Savolax)

Karjalan Rintama (Karelska fronten)

Viipuri (Viborg)

Lemp??l?-Lahti (Lemp?l? - Lahtis)

Kouvola-Kotka-Hamina (Kouvola - Kotka - Fredrikshamn)

Pellinki (Pellinge)

Etel?-Suomi (Syd-Finland)

because of the late institution of the medal, many germans who had fought in Finland, didn't manage to get the medal before they left the country in november, and after the war many didn't even know that they would have been eligble for such thing. And needless to say, there weren't many germans who knew that they would be even entitled to have bars on their medal.

In your bar (which seems to be the Altvater bar from Andreas Thies?) are the bars in swedish, '?sterbottens befriande' (Liberation of Osthrobotnia) and 'Syd-Finland' (Southern-Finland). Now, I have no idea what mr. Altvater did in Finland (something remarkable, apparently, for he got the cross of liberty 2nd class), but basicly germans who took part of the Finnish campaign in either the Ostsee-Division or in Brigade Brandenstein, would have been eligbe only to the bars 'Etel?-Suomi', 'Lemp??l?-Lahti', and 'Kotka-Kouvola-Hamina' (or their swedish equivalents). naturally, there was german individuals who fought under these formations, most notably those ex-german officers on Prussian J?gerbattalion 27, who came to Finland with their men. But the bar '?sterbottens befriande' is usually seen in Finnish groups only, since the participants were mainly men from that area, Osthrobotnia. And Altvater being a navy guy, that seems even more strange.

But like said, campaign bars in German groups are rare.