Brendan

Number 1 on the list of named 1916 medals is Adams, John F. It could not have been Dev because numbered medals were only issued to the next of kin of those who had died either during the 1916 Rising or in the intervening years between 1916 and when the medal was issued in 1941.

The auction has disappeared and is replaced with a buy-it-now for 10 grand or best offer, one offer so far but it was declined. It appears the sellers account was hijacked, maybe the Tynan ghost or they do say if you upset the 'boys' even the grave will not protect you.

Gentlemen (and hopefully ladies),

From the look of the ribbon on the 1916 medal it looks like it could be a replacement medal issued in the 1980s although the ribs on the ribbon look a little large and with the ribbon appearing slightly too large for the pin bar it has some of the hallmarks of the Australian copy.

After the splitting of the Tynan group I think it interesting that the seller describes himself as a collector.

This is not the "very questionable" 1916 medal that appeared on Ebay about a year ago as the seller of the "very questionable" medal was me (every-thing-irish on Ebay). Unfortunately I was not forced to remove it from Ebay but done so because as a collector, although since the advent of Ebay I have become more of a dealer, I would not allow any medal that questions had been raised about to pollute the pool of genuine items.

I say unfortunately I was not forced to cancel the auction for the "very questionable" medal because if an item is questionable there is nothing you can do about it if the seller decides to carry the auction on to its conclusion. I have seen one seller in particular sell several Sam Brown belts as Irish Army although if you look as his feedback as a buyer you can see the belts were purchased from the UK, sometimes the original seller would give the name of the British Army regiment the belt came from, yet they were resold on Ebay as Irish Army.

As you can see from the auction Paul's question to the seller has not been added to the description and I would suspect it is very unlikely it will be. Maybe it is time for a web-site giving exact details of the genuine medal, I know it will also be read by the forger but at least the collector will know what to look for. I know the fake is thinner and lighter than the original but if you do not know how thick and how much the original weighs how do you tell the good from the bad.

I concur with Paul. It looks perfectly OK but any example commanding a substantial price ought to have the top suspender. Gosh...I remember when one could pick these up in London antique markets for around ?15.00 or ?20.00. I think Ireland's escapist attitude to her looming economic troubles, some smart types with a talent for hype, the 90th anniversary and a rash of people with more money than sense caused the enormous hikes in prices.

Interestingly enough, I approached Whyte's last year with a stone proof of a portrait of Sir Roger Casement, done in Dresden during Casement's last visit to Germany just before the Rising. The stone proof - a unique item - was done for a German propaganda book of the time and ended up in the collection of the director of the hotel where Casement stayed. Gustav R?cker collected autographs of some of the interesting people who stayed at the Europa Hof from the WW1 era to the 1930s and I have the collection. So, yes, the print appears to be signed by Casement. Whyte's estimate? About ?200.00. This was in the run-up to that Uprising sale. I had actually made a bet with a friend who was pushing me to cash in on the whole 90th anniversary hype that this would happen when I 'came from nowhere' and asked the auction house about this piece. Had I been a dealer or someone better-connected with them, I expect the estimate would have been somewhat higher. Not that I wish to cast aspersions. Maybe the chap at Whyte's failed to grasp the historical importance of the piece... But I won my bet, which I made on the basis of my highly jaded attitude to auctioneers in general.

At the end of the day, far more of these medals were minted than ever awarded. Of course, a set with verifiable provenance and related ephemera will always have a substantial value, particularly if the recipient happened to be well known or well-connected. However, I would challenge $500-plus for an unattributable, incomplete War of Independence Service Medal.

PK

I wouldn't pay to much heed to Whyte's, I sold 2 oil on canvas paintings of 2 obscure English Lords with them a few years ago, their estimate was 80 to 150 Euro, the paintings sold for 11,800 Euro, when I queried the amount of commission they charged they said it was for their expert advice.

I was reading through Western Militaria section and saw a question from a member requesting a copy of the 1916 Roll of Honour. Being new to the board I wasn't sure if I should reply because the message was nearly a year old and I wasn't sure how long a topic remains active.

The member requesting the Roll was given the incorrect information that there was no Roll available. In 1966, when the 1916 commemoration medal was issued the National Museum of Ireland decided to put together a Roll of Honour of those who took part in the 1916 Rising. It took over 5 years to produce the Roll and when it was published there was much consternation and debate. The Museum applied the same criteria to be included on the Roll as was applied to be eligible to receive the 1916 medal.

There were 2411 1916 medals issued, there are 1468 names on the Roll of Honour, a discrepancy of 943 medals. The Roll only includes the action that took place in Dublin so the discrepancy was put down to medals being awarded for actions that took place outside of Dublin. The Museum did examine the actions that took place in Galway, Cork and any other action that was alleged to have taken place during the qualifying period but they decided that the actions were either of no significance or there was insufficient evidence to prove the action took place at all.

Another interesting point is that many who qualified for the medal refused to accept it. My own Grandfather fought in both the 1916 Rising (his name is on the Honour Roll) and in the War of Independence. My Grandfather firmly believed that medals should not be issued until the war was over; he also served time in prison in 1943 for assaulting a local dignitary for wearing a Truce Medal with Bar when my Grandfather knew that this dignitary had not taken part in any military action during the War of Independence and had been targeted by my Grandfather's IRA unit during the War because he was a know informer.

Another topic of interest for those interested in the background to these medals is the Irish national and local newspapers, particularly the letters to the editor page. The newspapers of both 1942 and 1966 contain a raft of letters from veterans of 1916 and others complaining that 1916 medals were being awarded to people who spent Easter Week 1916 under the bed or down the local police station telling tales.

The Roll has been published in various books, The 1916 Proclamation by John O'Connor, re-issued in 1999 and still available, contains the Roll. Wouldn't it be just awful to discover that the medal you had paid all that money for was awarded to someone who had done nothing during the Rising or even worse had actually been on the other side?

Brendan

If it's any consolation, replacing originals with fakes is one of the classic scams. It's been done to a lot of German veterans. It has also been done to many museum collections, from the Imperial War Museum downwards. If there is someone out there advertising medal remounting services and switching medals like this, he ought to be exposed for it. Mind you, without proof, one cannot accuse people. If you were done over in this way, it's a very expensive lesson, given the prices these medals are fetching. It is a shame that you did not consign them for auction through Whyte's as they were. Serious buyers wouldn't have cared about rotten ribbons. eBay is really the last place to offer anything nice. Whenever I want to offload something of quality, a successful sale for top dollar is never more than two or three telephone calls away. Mind you, you got a good price for the RDF BWM/VM pair.

PK

Hi PK,

Proof is the thing, I would hate to go accusing someone of something like that only to find I had accused the wrong person and I would have to sell an awful lot of medals Dublin Fusiliers or others to pay my legal fees.

Thanks,

Brendan.

Brendan,

I share PKs suspicions, you do not need to cut the ring in order to remove or replace the ribbon. I should know, I have a considerable number of original 1916 Medals in my collection (I started a long time ago !). I suspect you were the victim of a switch when the ribbons were changed.

Do you have any photos of the earlier group which we can compare ?

Regards,

Paul

Hi Paul,

Unfortunately no photos, I only took photos for the Ebay auction and that was long after the ribbons were put on and the medals, they were also shown and left with other people so they could check them out with a view to buying them. They say the best lesson learned is the expensive one and I think I have learned a lesson from this experience.

Thanks,

Brendan.

Hi,

I have just joined the forum to put forward my side of the debate on the 1916 and Service medal pair auction on Ebay. To start with I should let you know I am every-thing-irish.

The explanation of where I got the medals is true, they were found in a house clearance in Dublin. When I found them the original ribbons were covered in black mould and I discarded them.

On Monday morning, the day the auction was due to end, a collector of 1916 medals called to me to pick up some ribbon and was kind enough to bring along his original 1916 medals for comparison with the one I had listed on Ebay. After some examination, detailed measurements and discussion there was a doubt concerning the seam which should run round the edge of the medal where the two halves are joined during manufacture, the seam on the medal in question was intermittent rather than continues as you would expect. This could have been as a result of a good join or it could have been the seam was not recorded in the mould if the medal was a copy. Because of this doubt I decided to pull the auction, I only sell genuine items.

The size of the medal was almost identical to the comparison. I had the ribbons done on the medals twice. The first time it was by a medal collector in Dublin. He did a good enough job but when I bought some WW1 medals from a dealer in England I availed of his 'Professional Medal Mounting' service, as this forum and Ebay forbid the use of profanities I would say the job he did was less than perfect although they do look alright from the front.

As it turned out my attempts to pull the auction failed because Ebay do not let you cancel an auction if it has less than 12 hours to go, I replaced the pictures of the medals with Do Not Bid images and cancelled any bids but as I sort of expected someone went and bid in the last few seconds and I was unable to cancel their bid in time. I was also unable to add to the description to inform potential bidders of my doubts about the authenticity of the medals because Ebay do not allow you to add to the description if the auction has less than 12 hours to go.

I have decided not to sell the medals and to avoid 1916 and Service medals in future as there is too much controversy surrounding them, I think I will stick to currant Irish military items although I suppose it will not be long before they are copied. I have put the medals back in the cupboard where I should have left them, maybe when I am dead and gone someone else might discover them and the debate can start all over again.