Irish1916

. It merely suggests that they might not be as expert as they wish people to think, PK

On a similar note to PK, my collecting started with a 1916 & 1966 set with provenance, being deemed a fake by Whyte's auction house. My research confirmed for me that this late issued replacement medal set differs from the original but was genuine and a new hobby was opened to me. As previously discussed here the best expert opinion is achieved with a culmination of ideas and knowledge from the likes of the highly experienced collectors who kindly share their thoughts on this forum, a consensus from the hard hitters displayed above on any subject is hard to dismiss.

Phil, i am in discussions with Henry Coyle's granson, whoes father is mentioned above, do you know him or want to contact him yourself, Paul

Gentlemen, I pointed a 1916 veterans' descendent in the direction of the GMIC to further his research and he has posted a new topic in this forum. I am aware that this particular topic is "watched" by a lot of interested persons and am thus taking the liberty of highlighting here, his new topic "1916 ICA Action". Regards Paul.

I have 1054 Thomas Walsh which is a medal with Comhrac bar that came from the family and is named in lower case with initial capitals.

Thanks Paul, that a definitive clarification of the official use of the lower case font. Perhaps someday I might get to grips with the official markings.

Thank you all for the excellent opinions, I will link this forum on to the gentleman who sent me the photograph. His grandfather is in the group and he was an ICA member in Easter week 1916, which ties in perfectly with Brendan?s suggestion (however I think the grandson said he didn?t have the 1966 medal). His research has subsequently led him to a brother-in-law of the man in the photograph who was a GPO killed in action. I will leave the rest of the storey and his investigations for him to post , regards Paul

Sir, I would be intrested in your thoughts on this ebay auction item from Northern Ireland a few months ago (the medal did not sell),

Yon mentioned "and cumm nabawn brooches". The same ebay seller had the following on a different date,your thoughts?

have you any photographs of any of the items you mentioned.

with these good fakes it hard to tell them apart my advice from one medal collector to another is not to buy any from belfast or northern ireland ebayers ,pet.

I moved my posting to the correct "Easter Rising Medals" forum,Sorry for my error, Irish1916

I see there are 2 War of Independence Medals with Comrac bar on ebay right now... What worries me is that the seller is using the very same photograph of the reverse in both sales and also used the same image in one he sold previously. Too lazy to take pictures of each individual medal??

Not to mention, the photograph of the obverse of the first one looks terrible - really blurred and the medal looks to have a high gloss finish.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Irish-Comrac-Medal-wit...1QQcmdZViewItem

As previously stated, be very, very careful!

Regards - Danny

Gentlemen, One of these ebay auctions has a pin in its photograph that I discussed in another GMIC thread "Cumann na mBan gold badge on ebay" , although not stated as old I think it is badly discribed.

Paul

In the past I was offered examples of this "Old Gold" pin from a seller, he kindly lent me then prior to purchase and I brought them to 2 jewellers who confirmed they were gold. They both were surprised at the lack of assay mark and the both believed that the markings on the back of the pins would prove recent manufacturing.

I do NOT know if these are the same ones as that for sale,

Paul

An idea what was on the back of the medal?[

This is all i had showing the back, the stamps are as mentioned earlier.

Paul

See Lot 583, Auction May 26, 2008 at www.ashgrovegroup.ie

Regards - An Ceallach

Gentlemen

I was contacted by this auction house when they first received this medal requesting help in identifying it. At first the seller had a 1922 date (and my hopes were raised for a link to the very rare Collin medal) but this was then confirmed as 1934 (the s & g with the font used were easy to mix up apparently). The "surviving Republican Veteran" memories of the medal included its rareness (I was told 2 in total) but his reluctance/unwillingness/inability to add any more detail was worrisome. I found this a romantic but potentially misleading selective memory. Needless to say I found no collaborating evidence and was thus not the eventual purchaser. Any details would be gratefully appreciated to help get to grips with this item.

Paul

Regret to advise that a request was turned down.

An Ceallach

Was any explanation of grounds provided with the refusal?

Didn't purchase yesterday as keeping my powder dry to bid on the Sean Mac Diarmada 1916 medal.......that is if Irish1916 doesn't hijack my bid!!! He isn't saying much on this forum at the minute which speaks volumes about his intentions Even Ceallach is quiet

The calm before the storm!!!

I will be absent for Adams this year, as i was for Whytes.

A quick check on ebay (advanced search) showed two major players with only a total of 6 purchases,mostly minor, i bought nothing, molders claims only a few bits , irish medals says he got nothing:

And sale prices were at a much more normal level , 1916 at 4K, Comments Gentlemen ?

You guys DO realize that it is possible/logical to strat NEW threads

Rick, I deliberately chose to use this long thread to request information on this subject as I knew that some of the most knowledgeable collectors in this field had written on it and were hopefully receiving email notification of new posts.

Had I posted in the "Northern European & Baltic States: Non Communist Era For all Militaria, Orders, Medals & Decorations relating to the follwoing European (Non Communist) States: Dennmark, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Republic of Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Norway & Sweden."

forum ,where I should have, I may not have received the quick and excellent response from An Ceallach.

May I reiterate the request for our own forum please. Paul

Is there any proof that it is other than a Celtic Design influenced tie pin??

Kevin, the pin has the 1966 hallmark (which is the same symbol as the pin) on the back. According to the grandson of the man who received it ,it was "issued" in 1966 possibly along with his survivor's medal and was only given to Boland's Garrison. The only other one I could find (see previous post)was attached to a 1966 medal from another Boland's mill garrison participant. I have no proof at all that this is in fact correct. It could be 2 plus 2 equalling 5.

The auction house said that it had been bought by a collector in Ireland.

Not me. (this time)

I had some poor scans of the 1966 medal backs on my web site already which can be examined:

They do not seem to have the noticeable difference seen on the 1916 versions, with the exception of the Gold stamps.I am away next week but on my return I will get better scans when I retrieve the medals.

Gentlemen, as you know I have a 1966 replacement that was issued at the same time (in 1988) along with this potential latter struck 1916 medal.

I will retrieve this from the bank the week after next and along with other 1966 medals I have & will make some scans so we can look at the potential of different 1966 manufactured batches also.

D?il ?ireann - Volume 242 - 20 November, 1969

Ceisteann?Questions. Oral Answers. - 1916 Commemoration Medals.

Mr. L'Estrange Mr. L'Estrange

Mr. J. Gibbons Mr. J. Gibbons

Mr. J. Gibbons: The number of 1916 jubilee commemorative medals struck was 968, of which 964 were distributed to survivors of the 1916 Rising who were holders of the 1916 medal Every known eligible person has received the commemorative medal.

The above would suggest a maximum of 4 replacements could have been issued before a re-strike was necessary.

D?il ?ireann - Volume 222 - 28 April, 1966

Ceisteanna?Questions. Oral Answers. - Old IRA Service Medals.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan Mr. O.J. Flanagan

51. Mr. O.J. Flanagan asked the Minister for Defence the number of medals that have been issued since 1st January, 1966 to members of the Old IRA with 1916 and other service to their country in 1917-1921.

Mr. Hilliard Mr. Hilliard

Mr. Hilliard: Since the 1st January, 1966, 131 Medals?1916 and 1917-1921 ?have been issued, as well as 901 1916 Survivors' Medals. In addition, 113 replacements and miniatures have been issued during the period.

The above reference may help Saoirse with his question on miniatures.

It seems to say that as in the first 4 months of 1966 a maximum of 113 miniatures (both 1916 & 1917-1921) could have been issued but this would probably be a significantly less as the figure includes replacement full size medals also.

Was it not discussed that the miniatures were voluntarily purchased rather than issued. Any thoughts on this.

Gentlemen, does anyone have any thoughts of the officially named and number 1916 medal for sale at the moment and the posthumous numbering system.

Sorry , i should have been more specific, its not on ebay , the auction is at http://www.plymouthauctions.co.uk/

What if Partridges' wife's intervention resulted in his inclusion in a successful 1923 pension application (despite his death after the week) and no-one made an application for Frank Sheridan (who also died after the week) and thus his decedents did not receive a 1923 pension.

Then the 1923 pension list would include Partridge as a killed in action and not Sheridan and it may then follow that Partridge was numbered under 84 and Sheridan over 85.

(I can't believe I am debating this with the man who discovered the formula in the first instance)

Gentlemen, does anyone have any thoughts of the officially named and number 1916 medal for sale at the moment and the posthumous numbering system.

It is to William Partridge and is numbered 67. Paul Murphy's excellent research for the medal society of Ireland made the very accurate conclusion on the similarity of the killed in action of Easter week to the medals number 1 to 84 when listed alphabetically.

However William died in 1917.

Could it be possible that the numbers are related to a list of people on a pension recipient basis?

Notes from the archives

Letter to President Cosgrave from Mrs Partridge, 22 January 1925. `As you may know I made application for pension but owing to my Husband William not dying of gun shot wounds I did not come under the Act. All my widowed friends of 1916 are getting pensions and I would like to be the same'

Minute to R O hEigheartaigh from Horgan, Army Pensions Department, 8 December 1924, stating that Mr William Partridge's death `is attributable to prison treatment, and in these circumstances his widow's claim will be eligible for consideration if and when the Amending Pensions Bill becomes law'.

Would be interested in seeing the reverse of the repalcement medal itself, if possible. Curious, as medal stocks were supposedly exhausted in the late 70's.

Regards - An Ceallach

This may be a bit of a public forum to open up this discussion on but here goes anyway.

The medal in question along with a 1988 replacement of a 1966 medal and an "original" 1941 version of a 1916 medal were given to me by my grandfather. They belonged to his best friend Mr. Joe Doe. There was also a 1916 medal box.

They were accompanied by 3 pieces of paperwork, one of which confirms, without doubt I believe, that two of them (a 16 & 66) came from the Dept. of Defence.

When I first received them I went to see an auctioneer very well known to all of us who dismissed me with my two "fake" medals and one "real" one and thus my collecting and research began.

The medal & ribbon have some unusual elements to it and any insight anyone can give to this VERY late issue medal would be of interest to us all, I am sure.

Its weight and size are as per the average of all my others.