Veteran

Hello everyone

This Crimea medal has a strange period ribbon : instead of a clasp it carries a "pip" sewn on the obverse.

Could this pip be made to complete the story. I have never seen anything quite the like.

Comments will be gratefully received. Thank you

Veteran

The topic of BWM awards to European civilians was discussed by Anthony Margrave in his quarterly journal on French medals titled "Honneur et Patrie, October 1997, Vol. 6, #3, pages 24-26 (this journal is now discontinued). He quoted a reference that 4127 British War Medals were awarded to British, Belgian & French civilians who worked as agents for the BEF in France during the war. These names were in a record box titled "British War and Victory medals. Agents, British, Belgian, French" which was housed at the Public Records Office, Kew, as Record Group 329/2356. The French recipients were in a manuscript dated 7 August 1919, which consisted of 17 typed pages. It listed the names and addresses of the French civilians, men & women entitled to the BWM. There was a note in the record box stating that 269 BWMs for French citizens were to be named, and 9 more were to be left blank.

Alec Purves in his book "Medals, Decorations & Orders of the Great War 1914-1918" stated that 133 silver and 573 bronze BWMs were awarded to European civilians who aided the BEF in France. None of these medals were named as issued, according to Purves. An article by Marcel Nuikttens on the BWM awards to Belgian citizens was published in the Winter 1991 issue of Journal OMRS, Vol. 30, #4, pages 181-283.

Thank you fot this information about the "British, Belgian and French Agents" who were civilians and received a BWM as a reward for their help to British Military Intelligence. You are right they have been clearly listed and the register is at Kew.

Contrary to what Alec Purves thought, their medals are all properly named (I have had two to Belgians and still have two to French ladies) with First name Initial and Family name : i.e.: L. VERFAILLES (French) or J.T. DE NEVE (Belgian).

A few years ago, a post was made here about a Frenchman who had been shot by the Germans for the same type of services and who received a posthumous BWM, I believe.

The BWM I was inquiring about is different : the First name (MICHEL) is fully engraved, which to my knowledge excludes the Agents.

Thank you for your kind help.

Tried to do so online research but there really isn't much. Two references - I believe your medal would be the first one - merits - where there is no mention of class. However in the second one, there is a mention of three classes.

Not much help I'm afraid!

Scuole italiane all'estero

Medaglia per meriti nelle scuole italiane all'estero (Regio Decreto ??? 1902)

Medaglia di benemerenza per le scuole italiane all'estero (dal ??? al ???)

(Regio Decreto ??? 1902). Istituita nelle classi d'oro, d'argento e di bronzo.

Thank you both for your helpful answers.

Paul, I had first thought that "all'Estero" meant "in foreign countries". But it could, of course, also mean "overseas". Your suggestion is a great help and makes better sense.

No wonder, you are on the spot, as always. I am very grateful and this definitely wets my appetite.

Jim, I found information through Google, but could not make much of it. It was kind of you to bring this. I just hope we have an Italian collector or connaisseur who will be able to comment on the medal more fully.

The medal has been in my collection for decades and I never really thought about it. It seems time to wake up.

Very best regards to both of you.

Paul

Hell all

Could anyone comment on this medal, obviously mounted to be worn by a lady.

It is the silver Merit Medal for teachers in italian schools established in other countries than Italy. This is clear.

The only reference I could find is Franco SCANDALUZI (Ordine equestri, Medagie e Decorazioni italiane 1962) who mentions a BRONZE medal with a RARE grading. The medal shown in the book is a V.E. III type with the facist reverse.

This one is therefore prior to 1923 AND a silver medal. What is still to be established is its relative rarity and all other information which would help to understand its true nature.

Further information will be gratefully received.

Veteran

Hello, this is an interesting set that was given to me about 10 years ago and has a bit of a story. It was given to me by a lady who knew I was interested in medals, the family who gave them to her were going to throw them out! The first medal is the bronze Al Valore di Marina with the inscription on the back: A. Magliano Alberto - studente - S. Bartolomeo (Arcola) 17 Agosto 1912.

I have tried and tried to research this man, even requesting information from the Italian government; the only reply I recevied from them is that they wanted me to return the medals to them! I checked with other collectors and they said I didn't have to thankfully.

The only information I was able to find from that inscription is that Arcola is another name for La Spezia, one of the larger naval ports in Italy, so that made me think he was awarded it as a naval cadet. Anyway if anyone has any comments that would be great, I haven't seen many WWI Italian sets complete before so I thought it was worth posting.

Hello Jeff

A very nice group you show. The Al Valor di Marina medals are really scarce, and yours is included in a most interesting group, which looks quite genuine.

I also have found that researching Italian life-saving material is most difficult. Collectors certainly exist for this type of material, but they don't seem to be easy to join, either because they don't read forums or because they are shy and want to remain private.

This was the case very generally with French collectors (but they are beginning to communicate).

Not being a true connaisseur of Italian material, I could not comment on the group you have. The epaulettes suggest an artillery officer, probably WW1. He may have received his AVMar when he was a student (not necessarily a cadet) and the other awards for war services later.

The interesting point is that the AVMar is worn as the most important of his awards.

All the best

Veteran

Jeff

Hi,

how comman was this? I sometimes find fantastic acts of bravery, up to and including saving a Regt Commander that were rewarded with just a CdG.

My MM groups seem to have been given the MM after a number of citations and on top of that, having earned it through Hard work/Time in the unit.

The reason for my enquiry is, how likely is it that an "other Rank" man can be awarded MM or LdH for an act of bravery within a week of arriving at the front for the first time?

There seems to have been at a least a system of proving yourself over a period of time for MM ot LdH ?

Best

Chris

Hi

Any man could have been confronted with a special combat situation at any time. Moreover, the MM was the only award available for at least 18 montns after the War started, until the Croix de guerre was created.

As I tried to explain earlier, there was no set rules about progress in bravery awards, except possibly with the Air Force, where things could be codified to a point.

In fact, I would say that most French collectors don't reason along those lines. Generally speaking, a MM to a man under 35 would always be considered an award for gallantry. An older man could also have one for long and distinguished service in the ranks. But he also could have received it for bravery. That is because the MM serves both as a gallantry and aa a long and distinguished service medal like the MSM (not an automatic award).

The French approach to awards is different. Don't try too hard to compare it with the British or the German systems.

Hope this helps.

Hi,

would it be correct to say in WW1 a soldier would get a Medaille Militaire with about 5 CdG citations, then a Legion D Honneur with about 10?

Is there a "Fixed" rule of thumb?

Thanks

Chris

Hi Chris

I would rather think there was no "rule of thumb". Air force pilots would possibly receive a MM after so many palms if an NCO or be made a Chevalier of the Legion d'honneur.

But normal Army or Navy personnel could receive MM or LdH with less than 5 citations. Outstanding bravery could gain an immediate MM or LdH with a palm on the croix de guerre.

This happened to my own father. As a second lieutenant 2e Tirailleurs, during the very first days of the initial attack on Verdun February 1916, when the Germans were crushing the French defenses under an avalanche of artillery and delivering the heaviest attack ever, he rallied men who were falling back after all their officers had been killed, brought them forward and stopped the developping attack. He was very badly wounded during the fighting. Within a few days, he received an immediate Legion of honor + croix de guerre with palm published in the Journal Officiel.

One tradition was that NCOs and enlisted men who had already won a Medaille militaire would receive the Legion d'honneur for a new outstanding act of gallantry. When on parade, the flag of the famous Regiment de Marche de la Legion etrangere was surounded by five NCOs and men who ALL had that combination, the bearer being a lieutenant with the Legion d'honneur.

Naturally traditions have varied with the years. But they remainded pretty much the same durint WW2, Indochina and Algerian wars.

Best regards

Veteran

Hello Noor

I agree with P. These medals are very popular these daya, partly because a very good book was published last year on the subject.

Nevertheless such Colonial Medals of the early period do come on the market constantly. The professional offers are sometimes high, as is the case for the TONKIN medal shown.

But they can also be cheaper : one early Colonial Medal with early clasp ALGERIE (mistakenly announced as AFRIQUE) is up for sale on the French eBay until to-morrow and still well under 10 Euro. It probably will make a little more, but I doubt it will go very much over 40 Euro, if that much.

Let's see what the market says.

Best regards

Veteran

Hello Noor

I agree with P. These medals are very popular these daya, partly because a very good book was published last year on the subject.

Nevertheless such Colonial Medals of the early period do come on the market constantly. The professional offers are sometimes high, as is the case for the TONKIN medal shown.

But they can also be cheaper : one ALGERIE (mistakenly announced as AFRIQUE) is up for sale until to-morrow and still well under 10 Euro. It probably will make a little more, but I doubt it will go very much over 40 Euro, if that much.

Let's se what the market says.

Best regards

Veteran

Hi Prosper

A very nice medal you have here. It is indeed a Mercier finish and the clasp too if you could see the maker's hallmark.

Incidentally, the Mercier marks were first with M D C (the D in runing script) then M D C with a full D.

Your ribbon is beautifully preserved and may have been awarded posthumusly. But ribbons were supposed to be renewed every five years when worn and it may simply be a clean one.

I just love the old clasps which were changed to the simpler pinch-bar around 1913, since the number to be awarded made them very expensive as they were farmed out for finishing. The Paris Mint and the private makers all went to the pinch-bar reverse.

Regards

Paul

He is a Merchant Seaman: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8404116&queryType=1&resultcount=1

But he was born in Liverpool in 1898.

Ancestry has a number of entries for him in the New York Passenger lists. He's listed as an A.B. (Able-bodied Seaman). Although he was active throughout the Second World War he doesn't appear to have applied for his medals, at least from the U.K.

SO I would say he is missing only his Mercantile Marine Medal.

Thank you so much Michael. I am most grateful.

So he was born in Britain (but was he a Briton ?) and he served a a young lad as a Merchant Seaman.

I cannot help wondering where his parents came from.

This was a fast and most satisfactory answer. Wonderful. Hope to be able to reciprocate some day.

Very best regards

Paul

.,

Hello paddywhack

The naming is just as mentioned. No other indication.

Medals to Belgian & French agents of Military Intelligence NEVER have the full christian name. Only an initial. Therefore this medal is clearly not to one of these agents, four medals to which I have or have had.

For some reason, the merchant sailors seem to have been listed elsewhere. Seems you have run into the same trouble I have.

Thank you for your message.

Veteran

Hello all

I have a BWM named to CHARLES RENAUD, a very french sounding name. Possibly Canadian, French or Belgian ( or Channel Islands ?).

This type of naming is usually found on medals to merchant sailors.

The trouble seems to be with finding the reference with the National Archives. Would anyone have a clue.

Every bit of information will be gratefully received.

A very interesting group you have here.

I cannot help thinking that a Legion of honor officer's badge would point to a Brigader General or a full colonel at least. The combination with a US award might point to a high ranking British or Commowealth liaison officer with the French (Free French ?) and the Americans, although one would rather expect a Legion of Merit from them in such a capacity.

It might also be that the Legion of honor was awarded to this officer for services other than military. One has to remeember that the French order is the same for military or/and civilian services. He could have been a high ranking embassy official with services before or after WW2 in Paris.

Hope you find who the gentleman was. Lots of enjoyable research.

Happy hunting ....

(

Congrats Gavin!

I Particularly like the piercing of the plaque on your medal. Seems like this piercing technique was only used on the earlier medal production. If this medal is still being produced, I'm sure the quality is no where near the quality of the early French medal makers.

Hello all !

These beautiful pictures show two kinds of orders, which the purist collector of French colonial material should clearly understand.

One first group of five orders are proprely considered to be French colonial orders. They originally were Indo-Chinese or African, awarded by local rulers of countries which had been taken over by France in the later XIXth century, namely :

The Royal Order of Cambodia

The Order of the Dragon of Annam (one of the componants of now Viet-Nam).

The African Order of the Black Star of Benin (West African country)

The African Order of the Star of Anjouan (Small island in the Indian Ocean, off the East African coast).

The African Order of Nichan-el-Anouar (Tadjourah a minute Sultanate on the Red Sea)

These orders were simply annexed by the French and the Chancery of the Legion of honor was in charge of all five. The local rulers had practically no say.

The first two were returned to the King of Cambodia and the Emperor of Annam shortly after WW2.

The three others were dubbed "Overseas Orders" and continued to be awarded until they disappeared with the creation of the National order of merit along with a dozen other minor government "orders" in 1963.

The second group of two orders were treated differently. Nichan-Iftikar of Tunisia and Ouissam-Alaouite of Marocco, although they were frequently bestowed upon Frenchmen, remained "foreign" orders whith close ties to the French.

The Nichan-Iftikar disappeared when Tunisia became a Republic.

The Ouissam-Alaouite is still bestowed by the King of Morocco.

Rather confusing, of course. But these orders deserve to be understood as best as possible.

Veteran

Reverse

Hello Prosper

Very nice picture indeed.

To be absolutely exact, the two first medals are official issues (1939 Croix de guerre & Italian campaign medal). The third is not really a veteran's medal. It is neither a campaign medal nor an official one.

It was an award made by "Rhin-et-Danube" the association for veterans of the French 1st Army (1944-1945) sometimes refered to as the African Army. They landed in Southern France with the VIIth Allied Army Group in August 1944 and finished the campaign in Austria in May 1945.

This (private) medal was given by Rhin-et-Danube to members who have served the association with distinction for a number of years. The association was officially disbanded a few years ago when most of its surviving members had disappeared.

Its is not rare, but you don't find it often. A nice addition to any WW2 French collection.

Thanks for showing. Best regards

Veteran

Jeff

You might be interested to know that half-a-dozen projects including the picture on the left were submitted to the selecting board.

The final choice proved very successful, although it was not particularly original (the Russian Order of Saint-Ann with swords was very much like it and had been in existence for decades).

Thanks for showing.

Veteran

I recently acquired a Nichan Aftikhar Sodock medal (Tunisian made) with a green and red striped ribbon. Were all the early Nichan medals with this color of ribbon or were there two ribbons issued like some french colonial medals with one from French government and one from Tunisian government? All the later Nichans seem to come with only a yellow and red striped ribbon.

This ribbon is quite all-right. In fact, the rosette is typical of the early ones.

Looks very nice to me.

Veteran

Markus

Hi Noor

You are right to assume that this may be the final part of a larger set of ribbons.

These two probably were worn the other way round. First the green ribbon for the Tunisian order of Nichan Iftikar, then the red ribbon for the unofficial (but generally tolerated in veterans' groups) Verdun commemorative medal "awarded" by the City of Verdun.

Happy collecting!

Veteran

thanks ,

A very good start indeed. Since you have several frames, you might like to put all official war decorations in one of them, official civilian awards in an other and keep the third for unofficial badges, since you seem to enjoy collecting them as well.

You would possibly derive even more pleasure when looking at them.

Happy collecting !

Veteran

thanks ,

A very good start indeed. Since you have several frames, you might like to put all official war decorations in one of them, official civilian awards in an other and keep the third for unofficial badges, since you seem to enjoy collecting them as well.

You would possibly derive even more pleasure when looking at them.

Happy collecting !

Veteran

More important were the privileges connected with the carte de combattant. As I understand it, you couldn't wear the medal unless you had the card.

Your are right. In fact, the cross is one of the priviledges attached to the "Carte du Combattant" which intitles its owner to a very symbolic pension (it still does : I get a little less than 600 Euro/approx.800$ a year as a WW2 veteran)

The "Carte du combattant" is a Government issue. One has to apply and prove he belonged for a long enough period to a combat unit, or have taken part in a certain number (3 I believe) of major battles. Men wounded in action receive it without other justification.

Incidentally, the cross has to be bought (a few Euro) by the wearer.

All the best

Veteran

Hello Noor

I would rather believe your badge to have been made in Tunisia. The enamel is quite typical, as is the silver body of the badge.

A mint mark in Arabic might also be stamped in the back, but not necessarily. Quite my favorites...

Regards

Veteran

And so used through the First World War. Those who were "Mort pour la France" (an offical designation in France) were entitled to the Medaille Militaire and Croix de Guerre. Often these were framed together with the memorial scroll. Sometimes I have seen the Croix de Combattant in as well, though how someone could apply for one when they were dead is a puzzler.

You are quite right. The Combattant Cross was created quite a few years after the end of the war.

When you find them with the posthumeous awards of Legion d'honneur/Médaille militaire + Croix de guerre, the crosses have simply been added by the family : had these men lived, they would have automatically been intitled to wear them.

Veteran

One of my favorite:

A very nice Chevalier badge of the Legion of honor, Napoleon III (1852-1870) period. Probably one of the nicer looking types of the order.

It shows normal signs of wear.

A good straightforward item in your collection. Not scarce, but certainly worth having.

Veteran