Veteran

hi all help need to identefy ,heavy medalion

Hello blueman

This looks like a "general purpose" commemorative medalion relating to the French Foreign Legion. A view of the reverse and description of possible hallmarks or incriptions on the rim would help answer your question.

Regards

Veteran

Hello John:

Going strictly by memory I would rather not venture a guess. But I believe them to have been more of an all around talented officer.

The insignia you showed were for the French north-african formations as the color red, the Crescent and star indicate. Whether the SAS had their own , dedicated insignia I am unable to say (and you did not ask the question).

In any event the SAS cling to my memory as an outstanding branch of service.

Bernhard H. Holst

Hello Irish

I would rather think these shoulderboards and insignia belonged to a lieutenant attached to the Algerian/Tunisian Spahis (at the time native cavalry with mostly French officers and a proportion of French NCOs). He could have also served with the SAS.

The ribbon-bar is distincly pre-Algerian conflict. If it belongs with the Spahi material, this man served (probably as an NCO or possibly as an "Aspirant) in Indochina and possibly during WW2 against Germany or Japan (the bar on the light blue 1939-45 Commemorative medal would tell).

Strangely it does not have the Algerian "peace-keeping" ribbon which would normally have been worn by an SAS officer.

A nice group of obviously period material.

I would expect these remarks to be amended by better expert than I.

Regards

Veteran

And this to the same person.

Hi

These two papers are are typical of private initiative "awards". In fact, it should be considered as "an encouragement" and not as an award. This is clearly written at the top of the first of the two diplomas.

Although the title-line refers to "REPUBLIQUE FRANCAISE" the first paper has no official standing what so ever.

In other words, this diploma is a friendly "pat in the back". Just being nice. Nothing more.

The second diploma was given on the occasion of a professonnal exhibition. If a medal went with it, it would have been a non-wearable type.

Regards

Veteran

Hi,

I think a non govt. medal particular to the federation.

Best

Chris

Chris is right.

This is a certificate for faithful and long services to one of the private companies affiliated with the glass-manufacturing industry.

It may, or not, go with a medal (silver in this case). Such medals were commissioned by the industry and struck privately or sometimes by the Paris Mint by special request. They have, of course, no official standing and were supposed to only be worn within the limits of the firm.

I cannot remember seeing one of these glass-industry medals.

Regards

Veteran

Hello readers:

In addition to the very informative posts by Veteran and Prosper for anyone interested in exploring these complicated subjects further the books by Robert O. Paxton ( Legion d'Honneur in 2009)are highly recommended by me:

- Vichy France Old Guard and New Order;

- Parades and Politics at Vichy.

Due to my "Library" being in total disarray I could not retrieve a book specifically about the attack on French naval forces at Mers el Kebir in order to mention its title etc.

Of further, perhaps passing interest may be the fact that during the fighting in Syria where the 6. Regiment Etranger d'Infanterie was staioned while under control of the Vichy administration, units of the French Foreign Legion were for the first and I believe only time opposed to each other in hostilities. This left some bitter feelings in the subsequent internal Legion relations based on information contained in some literature.

Bernhard H. Holst

Bernhard

You are right about Foreign Legion units serving on both sides during the Syrian campaign. The 6th Foreign Infantry Regiment was the traditionnal Legion regiment in Syria. They were under orders from Gal Dentz. The Free French had the 13th Foreign Half-Brigade which had fought in Norway and joined the Free French when Commandant (Major) Magrin-Verneret decided to join De Gaulle, and his men went with him.

The stories I have heard about the fighting in Syria are that the Foreign Legion very cleverly managed to never be confronted to one another. When the fighting was over, Legionaires from the 6th Infantry were offered the choice to join the 13th H.B. or return to France. I remember seeing those who came back in France when they were on their way to Sidi-bel-Abbes.

Tension existed between some of the French metropolitan troups on both sides, and again in Algeria after the Allied landing there in November 1942. I don't think it affected the Legion very much, except possible a small number of French-born officers (serving with the Legion has always been condired by many Regular French officers the top command in the French forces).

A lot of silly stuff has been written about that period. Ignorance, make-belie tve, fantasy have all a great part in the nonsense. But one must understand that rewritting history the way it "should have been" is a great temptation.

Regards

Veteran

Of course! I was however thinking in terms of the fact that the war was "over" as far as the French government was concerned. But yes, the bombardment of Mers El-Kebir was an act of war against La Patrie by a foreign aggressor and they happened to have a Croix de Guerre extant. That said, one wonders what might happen if some Caribbean despot invaded Guadaloupe and men of the French armed forces distinguished themselves in battle. What would Paris give them?

PK

The war wan NOT over in 1940. An armistice had been negociated by the French but a war is over when a Peace-treaty has been signed (in fact it was NEVER signed with Germany for all I know). And the armistice prescribed that French forces were responsable for maintaining french authority in the overseas territories and other colonies.

This was one of the reasons why the French resisted when Allies (British, Americans, Free French) attempted to take over parts of the French Empire (Mers-el-Kebir, Dakar, Syria, Madagascar for instance). Which does not mean that Allies did not have good reasons of their own to do so, but the fragile balance maintained in what was left of metropolitan France between the German/Italian occupation and the "Vichy free zone" would have been endangered if they had not.... as was shown by the immediate occupation of that part of France by the Germans as soon as the Algeria & Morocco were successfully invaded by the Allies in 1942.

All this was very complicated. Considered such a long time after it happened, I can understand it does not make much sense. But those were the days.

Paul

I clearly remember the day we learned about the British attack on the French naval force in the harbour of Mers-el-Kebir. We were dubfounded.

This was considered to be an act of war and a croix de guerre was the normal thing if a "citation" (mention in dispaches) was awarded to a French sailor. The obvious one was the 1939 version which had been awarded since September of 1939 when (at the time) France was fighting Germany (and later the Axis) and this was still a war, this time against a different ennemy.

A T.O.E. croix de guerre would have been quite out of order : in those days, the three land-divisions (départements) of Algeria were considered as part of metropolitan France. It could in no case be considered a Théatre d'Opérations Extérieur. Which was the case for Morocco, for instance, which was a Protectorate.

This group is quite straightforward as far as I can relate the papers to the cross.

But this is a very complicated period, when perfectly honest men were fighting on either sides for equally respectable reasons. Making up ones mind about what was the right thing to do was far beyond most people's capacities. Things may seem clearcut to day to many younger people who are contiuously kept in touch with the news. In those days, news were mostly propaganda....

Regards

Veteran

Lovely ! Thank you for this additionnal information.

Seems we have it all now. I am very grateful

Regards and best wisher to all

Veteran

If you wish to see an illustration of the obverse there is an example in A.N.S. part 3, Morton and Eden, 26 April 2007, lot 130.

All the best,

Paul

Hello Paul

Thank you so much. That is just what I was looking for : I could not locate it in that catalogue which I thought I remembered had one.

Since the obverse of this ruin is missing and the catalogue had the complete obverse illustrated, I just could not put two an two together.

I hope this finds you well. Very best wishes for this 2011 !!

Paul

Thanks to all of you.

I am more grateful than I can say, since I just don't know who else could have supplied such detailed and precise information.

My very best wishes for this brand New Year.

Veteran

This is the incomplete reverse of the previous medal.

What period would it be ? Its exact title would also be nice to know. Every bit of information will be gratefully received.

Very best wishes for 2011. May this New Year be a wonderful collecting period for all members of this fine forum.

Veteran

Hello all

This unfortunately incomplete medal is probably chinese. What exactly it is has to be established and, if possible, its ribbon described.

Reverse on next post

As you said in your second post they are for different periods. The one on the right is for 50s and 60s (up until these North African territories were given their independance). It is very unusual to find it with three bars, you normally find it with one bar and Algeria is the most common.

The badge on the left hand ribbon is the unit badge of the 5th Regiment Tirailleurs Marocains (Moroccan Rifle Regiment) and dates from a later period than the medal.

Paul Murphy is right. The first medal with the green and white ribbon is the Moroccan campaign medal (1909-1912)issued to the troups engaged in the conquest of Morocco. It can carry one or several of four clasps : CASABLANCA - OUDJA - HAUT-GUIR - MAROC, according to the length and types of services.

So to speak, the first medal was issued when the French went into Morocco, and the last when they came out...

Regards

Veteran

Info? Thoughts? Negative comments? Anyone... Scott.

You are probably right. It looks french to me, quite similar to the one I was issued as a member of the Joint Armies Medical Corps Reserve in the 1970's..

That is the best I can contribute.

Best wishes

Veteran

Thanks for your prompt replay!

Any idea from where I can pick up that clasp only or there isn't much hope?

Regards,

Timo

There is always hope ! The answer here would be hope + patient research. I certainly could not tell you where you are sure to find one immediatly ! French Ebay might prove useful over the years. Everything seems to turn up there one day or the other.

Good luck.

Veteran

Hi Veteran,

Thank you very much for your replay!

One more question, if you guys don't mind, does Madagascar Medal 1895 should be only with the clasp or was it awarded as mine is - without?

Maker O.Roty / rim ARGENT

What would be current market value of these?

You have a nice period stricking here. Yes, the clasp should be on the ribbon, as it was one of the differeces with the first Madagascar campaign medal the ribbon of which was the same; an other difference was naturally the effegy of the Republic on the obverse.

Hope this helps

Veteran

Reverse. The maker logo appears on the reverse of the campaign bar on the gripper type clip

Hello Irish

This is a very nice lot of Medaille coloniale clasps.

The ALGERIE clasp with the 1rst type Medaille is a first period original made by the French Mint (Monnaie de Paris). I would say the nice type, but not scarce since it was awarded to a large number of recipients, including men who had served in Algeria since 1830, long before the establishment of the Medaille (1894).

The collection of bars you show in your first post looks quite all right. Most were commercially manufactured by the different firms who dealt in military insignia and medals. They were available for a variable number of years until they were sold out.

There is such a variety of makers and periods that a group like yours calls for slow and careful analysis. A very remarkable book was published recently : Patrick BINET : "La Médaille coloniale. Guide du collectionneur". It is frequently available on the French eBay for about 20 Euro. It would be just the answer for you.

Congratulation for these very nice clasps. You made a very good buy when you got the lot.

Hope this helps

Veteran

Médaille Coloniale (Maroc) wearer Hermann Gönster

Is it possible to tell the date and unit?

.

This man is a corporal possibly Foreign Legion, which the man's name would suggest (but not prove). No other sign or badge is apparent. The Foreign Legion white képi was worn in the late 1930s. The two woolen-chevrons of a corporal on the sleeves would be green.

The period is post-1918 since he is wearing a "fourragère" which could only have been won during WW1. The Colonial medal with MAROC clasp was awarded for combat services between 1914 and 1925.

An educated guess would be 1918-1925 previous to the Riff war. The Foreign Legion was heavily engaged in Morocco during that eriod

Later services were rewarded by clasps MAROC 1925 and MAROC 1925-1926 on the Colonial medal.

Hope this helps.

Veteran

Now, here is another Italian campaign medal. Just to be sure - ribbon is incorrect?

Noor

Your medal's ribbon is absolutly correct, ans quite possibly period.

The Italian campaign medals shown earlier have a different ribbon, in fact the 1943-45 Italian campaign ribbon. Those are mistaken.

Best regards

Veteran

This is a typical Second Empire (1852-1870)chevalier's badge of the Legion of honor. The eagles on the crown are one of the caracteristic features of that period.

It seems to be in good condition - the slight enamel flakes were often due to the fact badges were in constant wear if awarded to officers, for instance. The price is steep by French standards but in no way outrageous.

Hope this helps

Veteran

Hi all,

I have been offered at 250$us this cross of the legion of honor. Looks to me like a second empire version, probably 1850-1860 era. Will appreciate help for thumbs up or down! Better pictures will follow, those are the one the actual sellers as kept from ebay when he purchase it few years ago. I had ask him better one and he his suppose to send them to me today or tomorrow.

Any opinions ?

This lot might as well have belonged to two members of a same family (father & son for instance).

The 1870-71 Commemorative Medal was issued in 1911 to survivors of the Franco-Prussian war. Very few were in WW1 (one was Marshall Joffre who liked to wear his medal with the Grand Cross of the Legion of Honor).

The set of miniatues makes very good sense for a WW1 veteran who fought well. Late awards of the Legion d'honneur were occasionnally made to veterans who had several mentions in dispaches and the Medaille militaire for gallantry. The Merite social award was created in the 1930s and awarded to people who were significantly active in various civilian groups who brought social help to others.

The full sized awards which belong to the goup are typical of the WW1 veterans.

Hope this helps

Veteran

Hi Chris

This is an interesting paper and, as you point out, quite old.

In fact the Decoration of the Lily (décoration du lys) was mainly propaganda to make the return of the Bourbon kings to France in 1814 as popular as possible. These badges were even given to high-school students (lycéens).

The remarquable variety of ribbons according to the local districts (département) as well as the differences in shapes of the award have their avid collectors. But the paper-work going with them does not usually make collectors go beserk.

I don't know if this particular item found a client.

Regards

Veteran

Hello every one

We are having an interesting debate on the French medal collectors'forum about the U.S.A. Medal of Freedom.

It was rather sparingly awarded to French members of Resistance or people who helped extricate Allied soldiers and mostly airmen from occupied France.

Medal occasionnally appear on the market. They usually sell at moderate prices. We are trying to establish how to recognize early awards form possible later ones or outright copies. One of the features early medals known to be genuine seem to have is a thick (3mm +) flan.

Is this assumption correct ? How about various strickings, possibly by several contractors ? The MoF is a highly respected award in France and we really wish to receive accurate and useful way to tell the earlier ones.

Would experienced collectors of U.S. material care to give information on this medal. Every bit of help will be greatly appreciated.

All the best

Et maintenant, une petite barette "Levant 1941" qui semble d'avoir actuellement portée pendant la guerre par un militaire...

This riband with its miniature "Levant 1941" clasp appears to have been worn during the war by a soldier, sailor or airman. Apart from its rarity, the mounting is interesting, allowing as it does the option of pinning it to a uniform or wearing it through thread loops in the old-fashioned style. This arrived today as a gift from my pilot friend, Eric, in the south of France. Vétéran will be interested to know that Eric is a reserve officer in the 2e Régiment d'infantérie étranger as well as flying for Air France. He used to be a military pilot too. Now all he needs to do is serve on a battleship...

PK

Hello Prosper

Sure to be a scarce item ! Never saw one before.

The only explanation I can think of is that it was indeed worn by a Syrian campaign veteran between the time he chose to go back to France or North Africa with General Dentz and November 1942 when the Allies came to North Africa and the medal became the wrong thing to wear.

Looks good to me, quite the style at the time.

Congratulations for a outstanding piece.

All the best

Paul