Veteran

Hello 2xvetran

May I advise you to carry on with your idea of researching the right veteran or his family. To do this, accept the award in order to proceed with your plan, advise the French Consulate that the medal was sent to you (but not that you have accepted it) and that you are researching the rightful owner. In the same letter, also mention your intention to return the award if you are unsuccessful with your research.

You would then be quite covered and able to follow your original plan without being suspected of any kind of foul play. Yours is a generous idea worth every effort. I wish you every success.

Regards

Veteran

Very unusual and typical of the period (second half of 1800s)

A nice addition to collection of the Napoleonic period.

Congratulations

Hello all

I would like to add that this cross was not awarded simply for enlisting as a volunteer.

Two major conditions had to be met : enlist as a volunteer during an armed conflict when no obligation was made to join the Forces + earn the Croix du Combattant which went to men who had effectively fought at least in three majors "classified combats" or been in the front area for at least three months. These conditions were waved for the wounded in combat and holders of a croix de guerre.

To be considered as a volunteer combattant, one had to be either too young or too old to be normally called up. A few other circumstances, such as joining French Forces as a foreigner in time of war, would also allow the cross to be awarded.

It was officially awarded by the MoD with a formal document. It is considered as a war-credit, ranking high in the list of French awards, immediately after the croix de guerre, military valour cross and the Resistance medal.

Regards

Veteran

Qu'est-ce que c'est qu'un calgoulard? Google shows only your post for a reference.

Cagoulards were a group of French right-wing extremists in the late '30s. They were definitely a undercover organisation and even indulged into some terrorist activities. They were thought to have influence over some of the members of the French Government in Vichy (1940-44. Not much was heard of them after WW2.

"Cagoule" is the French equivalent to a face-mask as worn by cloak-and-dagger conspirators.

Coming back to love4history's question about the new Binet book on Colonial Medal, I also consider it as a MUST for every collector of French material.

I would like to add that the very serious collector will want to have both the HASS and the BINET. They are well worth their prices. Binet clearly considers his book as an adjunct to the Hass, which he refers to very often. It all depends on how interested you are in medals, but if you really want to know your stuff both these books are worth their money, and more.

The Binet is clearly meant to be the collector's hand book. It will help clearly recognise each type of medal and clasp. Since I bought the book I have been looking over the Colonial medals I picked up rather absent-mindedly over the years and I have thoroughly enjoyed finding out the finer details about each of them.

I feel I owe this author for the pleasure I derived from his shared knowledge. And I also know this would not be without the background knowledge derived from Jean HASS's book.

In fact, I am quite convinced this book is going to stir the whole French collectors community. New interest in the Colonial Medal will probably get things moving and possibly wake up the market.

Veteran

Hi Vet,

Bay State is a good guy, he has one in silver here...

http://www.baystatemilitaria.com/WWII/WWIIMetalInsignia.htm

Best

Chris

Thanks Chris, that's great. I am trying to locate one in sterling with the pin-back , but this would be a good substitute if I cannot find the right one.

All the best

Paul

Try this site

http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/usaafgunner.shtml

Ed

Ed

This is just what I needed to see. Thanks a million.

I had no idea such a variety of badges existed. Quite understandable, considering the number of men who were intitled (by the way, any idea about that?).

I wonder where I could find a Sterling badge for sale.

Very best regards

Paul

Hello all

I am trying to add as much information as I can about the silver U.S.Army Air Force airial gunner's badge which, according to Wipikedia, was authorised during WW2 for the gunners of the large bombers of WW2 - B17 and the following.

It would have been first issued in 1942 and dicontinued in 1947. Which is a short period of time. How many could have been used ? 10.000? More ? or less ?

Pilot wings seem to have been well documented. Is there a good source of information on the 'net which could be usefully looked up for the gunner'badge?

Would anyone care to share information about this one? Every bit of further information will be gratefully received. Thank you

Regards

Veteran

Yes, it is quite difficult to find.

Strangely, most French collectors don't know or don't care much about it. Connaisseurs would never pass it up, specially with the relevant date on the reverse, as shown by Cussonneau.

Veteran

Hi all,

Here is my today's catch - French Colonial Medal (Médaille Coloniale) with "Extreme Orient" clasp. Looks like silver made and pretty old details for me.

Because I don't know almost nothing about this area, I would like to know few things about that. First at all period, when it was awarded? What colonia - Siam? Vietnam, etc? Also French medal are usually maker marked, where I have to look -I don't see any in regular places.

I paid 25 euro for that (did I paid too much?), did I paid too much or almost fair price - Dubln prices are usually way over the top (I really liked look of that, so, I didn't mind and dealer wasn't sure as well, so I just went for that. Now would be good to know...)

This looks rather like a "CHOBILLON" medal. It might well be silvered bronze. True lovers of the Colonial Medal like to have a variety of makes, this one being a classic.

I am not truly a great connaisseur but the information I give comes from Jean HASS's book on the subject, considered by the local collecting community as the bible for the Colonial Medal.

Hopefully other collectors of this Medal will add to or correct this information.

Regards

Veteran

A fine service group, undoubtably Foreing Legion.

You will have noted the 1939-40 Croix de guerre (so-called "Vicby") has a unique palm on its ribbon. This might very well denote a combat Legion of honor for Norway. In which case, the Legion d'honneur citation should read "comporte l'attribution de la croix de guerre avec palme".

In which case the Legion d'honneu would be all the more desirable.

Even if some of the orders and medals are obviously missing, this group might deserve an additional frame with their replacements found on the market. The only difficult clasp to find might be NORVEGE.

This old legionnaire, who had risen from rank to officer, would have obeyed orders to return to France when they were stationed in the U.K. on their way back from the battle in Norway. He would then have normally been put up for the Legion d'honeur for his bravoury in Norway (this would appear from the date of his citation). All French troups in Britain were ordered back to France, and most of them did.

A significant number of men and officers from the 13th Half-Brigade (Regiment) of the Foreign Legion nevertheless remained in the U.K. influenced by Commandant Magrin-Verneret (Monclar) to become the nucleus of the Fighting French. They were to conquer legendary fame in Africa, with the famous battle at Bir-Hackheim in Libya where the Free French stood against Rommel's Afrikakorps and the Italian armored divisions.

They were to be branded as adventurers and defaulters ("dissidents") by the Armistice Government in Vichy until 1944, to be acclaimed as heroes when the French Army from North Africa helped liberate France.

A fine old soldier, in the true tradition of Swiss military service to France since 1515 (Marignan)!

The tradition was till there, centuries later, with a Swiss caporal-chef in my company who won a Médaille militaire and four citations to his croix de guerre between November 10 1944 and May 5 1945. Honneur et fidélité.

Regards

Veteran

It's an interesting thought Veteran, as he most probably belongs to a regiment of the Stockholm area - geographically close enough to the king, and those units were regarded as "high-status" (=more than their fair share of nobility and royal princes among their officers compared to their counterparts "in the countryside").

What level of decoration would a French President's medal be? Is it something awarded solely to junior ranks, or is it a decoration regardless of rank (I assume orders aren't out of the question for senior ranking potentates)?

/Jonas

A junior officer would probably receive the silver-gilt level of the Medal. Non commissionned officers would receive the silver medal and OR and corporals the bronze medal.

The same would apply to civilian court officials or servants, according to their ranks in their own hierarchy. Very seldom gold medals are known to have beeb awarded.

In those days, the only other French award available would have been an honorary membership in the Legion d'honneur, with awards ranking from chevalier for a Lieut.Colonel to Commandeur for a very high official such as the Master of Protocole.

This is, of course, a tentative approach.

Veteran

Jonas and Veteran thank you for your input. Every piece makes the puzzle one step closer to be complete. I just wish it could be easier to find him....

/Kim

An additionnal thought : this young officer wears the French President's medal. Which might mean that he was part of the Swedish Court at the time of a State visit by the French President, some time before 1914 I would say.

He could have served as an aide-de-camp to one of the higher officials close to the King. His uniform probably is typical of one of the Swedish Regiments.

The question might become : which officer(s) from that Regiment were aides to Court officials or to Royalty before 1914 at a time wheb the French were close to the Swedish Court ?

King Gustav V was a great friend of France and used to reside privately in Nice in winter for many years (he was known there as Monsieur G.) This also may help.

Regards

Veteran

The French medal is probably the medal given to by the President of the French Republic to court officials when a State Visit occurs. It is sometimes known as the French President's Medal. The french name for it is : Médaille d'honneur du Ministère des Affaires étrangères.

The suspension ribbon is vertically blue/white/red each stripe equal size. It ca be awarded in bronze, silver or gilt sliver. Since 1917 a military class with swords has been availabel. Since this officer wears the simple type, it might mean the picture dated before 1917.

Hope this helps.

Veteran

Here's the diploma for the Orient Medal. The fine print at the bottom says that recipients are responsible for getting the medal at their own cost.

Maxime Fournat was a French railwayman who was in the FFL. He was shot by the Germans in 1942 at St. Valerien.

To be quite precise, the place where Maximilien FOUNRAT was shot is MONT-VALERIEN, one of the old forts protecting Paris since the mid-XIXth century. Over 1.000 Frenchmen were executed there after they had been condemned by German court-martials. It is one of the most respected witnesses of French resistance to German occupation and an official commemoration is held there every year on June 18.

38 railwaymen were shot there for opposing the Germans in occupied France during the 1940-1944 after the fall of France in June 1940. They were not necessarily part of the FFL (Forces Françaises Libres, based in Great-Britain under the leadership of General De Gaulle).

Many were tried for sabotageing the railways in order to disrupt German transports or as members of the clandestine communist party after the Germans attacked the USSR. Others were members of intelligence networks keeping the Allied informed about German troup movements and strategic objectives, often allowing efficient bombing by the RAF & USAAF. The underground war waged by railwaymen during that period is know in France as "La bataille du rail". It claimed the lives of a large number of other railwaymen, shot, deported or killed during sabotage operations (blowing up railtracks or bridges for instance).

This additionnal story adds much to the value of the paper you have shown. A very moving award to a young man (then) who was to give is life for his country later in a heroic manner.

I don't know if it's one of the places already mentioned, but try Stella at 67 Quai de la Tournelle.

He normally has a good selection and the prices are not that bad.

He has a website, but it only shows a fraction of his stuff:

Stella

/Michael

You might also like to visit Jean-Christopne PALTHEY 9 rue Moncey 75009 PARIS who is a reputable dealer with usually some very good stock. If you want to call him before you come, his telephone is 00 33 1 49 95 09 98. He is located near Montmartre and keeps a shop.

Hope you enjoy your stay in Paris.

Regards

Veteran

Thank you very much for these interesting details. I am most grateful

Veteran

Hello all

I was shown a metal badge, possibly a cap or head-dress insignia, with the capital letters C I H. The Prince of Wales's crest is above the three letters.

Was there a unit called CENTRAL INDIA HORSE ? If not, what unit would have worn such a badge or used the letters ?

Every bit of information will be gratefully received

Veteran

Medal of the French Society for the Aid of Wounded Military (Médaille de la Société Française de Secours aux Blessés Militaires)

Is this award from Franco-Prussian war period one? I like a lot old original ribbon on it!

Up until 1940, the French Red Cross was a federation of half a dozen independant associations, some of which were established shortly before the 1870-71 franco-prussian war.

This particular insignia was the membership-badge worn by the lady-members of an Association called Société de Secours aux Blessés militaires (S.S.B.M.). The revere shows the rectangular area meant to be engraved with the membership-number of its owner. It was in use between the late 1870s until 1940.

They are quite nice and a number of collectors like to pich them up, although they are not properly speaking awards.

This same SSBM had issued a Cross known as the Geneva Cross for services during the 1870-71 conflict.

Best regards

Veteran

Bonjour Paul!

Thank you very much for this fascinating piece of information. It is true, now I come to think of all the photos I have seen of veterans in general, not just legionnaires, taken from the 1940s to the 1980s, that I cannot recall seeing the Gaullist Médaille Commémorative du Levant amongst the medals adorning proud chests. It is quite a distinctive ribbon and one would notice it. I have seen the 1922 medal in photos from the 1920s and 1930s but, of course, the "Levant - 1941" clasp was forbidden in 1944. I wonder how many Germans and Italians were serving in both Légion étrangère units at the time.

PK

Hello Prosper

Nice to hear from you again.

Your question about Legionnaires of German (or Austrian) & Italian origins fighting their countrymen is quite a classic. The answer is also quite a classic : no legionnaire of recorded national origin has ever been made to fight his countrymen.

It would be unfair and also would make other men in their combat unit wonder if they could be trusted. The Foreign Legion are not that stupid!

This being said, my own experience is that Germans and Italians were with my Regiment in 1944-45, and fought well. When I joined, my "legionnaire-nany" was a Reichweer veteran who had served 14 years with the Legion, including the fighting in Tunisia. Later, the driver of our half-track was a recently enlisted Italian who was as cool as a cucumber in the tightest circumstances.

Best regards

Veteran

One of the little known facts about that campaign is that two of the Foreign Legion regiments were opposed, one on each side.

The 6th Foreign Infantry (6e Régiment Etranger d'Infanterie) was part of the permanent garrison in Syria opposing the attack.

The 13th Half-Brigade (13e Demi-Brigade de la Légion Etrangère) was one of the best units with the Fighting French (Forces Françaises Combattantes). one of the very first to join De Gaulle in June 1940, when they came back from Norway. They saw service all over Africa before they were engaged in Syria. They were later to achieve glory at Bir Hakheim in Lybia.

Typically, the Foreign Legion were not going to fight one-another and they were nevertheless going to fill their missions thoroughly on either side. They simply arranged the fighting in order to avoid confrontation. Syria veterans in my own regiment a few years later told me about their combat against the Aussies .... who enjoyed a well deserved reputation for particularly tough soldiering.

I cannot remember legionnaires wearing that medal or ribbon, whichever side they had been on. For all I can remember, neither were particularly eager to display it. Just not the thing to do.

Until I became a medal collector, some twenty years later, I had never heard of the Levant Medal.

Regards

Veteran

Hello Prosper

It's hard to be honest & encourageing about those two items.... Let's hope somenone has the right answer, but they don't look very convincing to me.

Best regards

Veteran

Hello

Looking at the prices mentioned on the site suggested above, I would certainly recommend getting in touch with the French Gorvernment Mint which sells current French orders and decorations at good reference prices for brand new badges.

The adress is : Administration des Monnaies et Médailles

Quai de Conti

F75005 PARIS FRANCE

I would expect them to have sufficient commercial savy to receive and understand mail written in English. In fact, you might find their catalogue and prices (in French and in Euro) with the help of your favorite site-finder.

Kindly keep us posted with the success of your efforts. Good luck and pleasant collectiong !

Regards

Veteran

I'm glad I never bothered to buy one to add to my great-uncle's Legion d'honneur (as I have added his Croix de Guerre, Victory and Commemorative medals). He was lucky to escape Verdun (Fleury-devant-Douaumont) with only

Very fine and scarcer "citation" from a high level of command (Army Corps). Shown on the ribbon by a gilt star.

Thank you for displaying it. It certainly must be one of the prides of your family.

Regards

Veteran

Hello all,

Thanks for the great clarification about these awards. It really helps to find out about these unofficial but tolerated awards.

Regards,

Rob

Let's be clear.

The wound-star (étoile des blessés) is tolerated. At one time in the past, it was practically legal.

The type of badges shown on this post are forbidden of wear in public. They are only to be displayed in private, normally restricted to functions within the "awarding" society or at home. They have never been legal and the pretense that they are awards is precisely the reason why they should not be worn in circumstances when such confusion might arise.

Regards

Veteran

If I may add a few words to this topic, it is possible to clear a few points raized here about these badges.

I hope Christophe will agree that the French terme "toléré", quite aptly translated as "tolerated", means "unofficial-but-not-outright-illegal".

The red star "médaille des blessés" is a good exemple. It was in use for a short period, the normal wear of the red star for war wounds being a small enameled red star on the appropiate campaign medal ribbon. That is strickly enforced by military regulations.

A number of veterans wearing their full size medals have the "médaille des blessés" as a distinct badge with the original ribbon for war wounds. They are not going to be jailed for it and most officials will simply look the other way and keep their mouths shut. That is what I understand means the word "toléré".

As a WW2 veteran myself, I would not do that but I was lucky not to "qualify" for one. My own father who lost an arm in January 1916 at Verdun had one.

Coming back to the "couronné par l'Académie française" statement, this would simply mean that at one time or an other the association which "bestowes" such "awards" discussed on this post received some kind of a recognition from the Académie française. It certainly does not apply to the person who wears that type of private badge.

Basically, all this is self-promotion within an mutual-admiration-society as the song used to go.It can sound very confusing indeed !

This being said, some of these badges are quite attractive and collectable for what they are.

Best regards

Veteran