Veteran

A very interesting story may hide ehind that piece.... much has been written about war service officers who were also members of the Chambre des Députés.

They infuriated the high command as they could carry their complaints straiht to the highest political levels.

best

Chris

Hello Chris

I would not think this gentleman was still in active service at the time he was elected to the Chamber of Deputies. Most officers would retire at or before the age of 55 if they had not been made generals. Since in 1914 he was already the mayor of the small town of where he lived, I would rather think he would have been a civilian for several year. This is sustained by the fact that he was recalled as a reserve lieutenant-colonel when the War broke out.

To my knowledge, the military in those days were not supposed to have anything to do with politics. I even doubt they had a right to vote, but this is debatable.

Nice to have you on this forum. Best of everything in 2010 !

Veteran

Thanks to Chris I have been able to establish the identity of the Colonel as Louis Marie Adolphe Savoye de Puineuf.

Born 20th April 1856

Died aged 91 12th December 1947

Colonel de Cavalry, attending the St Cyr Military college 1875 and graduating as part of the 60th promotion class in 1877.

He is later listed as a Deputy (political title?) in the department of Deux-Sevres which is where the town of Thouars is located.

Could anyone point me in the right direction for further research regarding this Officer, (French internet sites?)

I'm still after his awards and military career

Simon

Your information is right. He was born April 20 1856 in the town of Saint-Servan in Brittany. Served in the French Army as a regular officer to the rank of Lieutenant-colonel at retirement.

He was the mayor of the small town of Etusson and won a seat in the Chambre des Députés (French equivalent to the House of Commons)in July 1914. Was recommissioned as lieutenant-colonel of the 32nd Dragons as a reserve officer in August 1914.

He was reelected in 1919, serving in the Chambre des députés until 1924. His activity as a member of Parlement was "modest" (polite French equivalent to "indifferent"). Dictionnaire des Parlementaires français 1889-1940.

The awards on the photo are, beside the Legion d'honneur, the Italian order of Saint-Maurice & Saint-Lazare (chevalier) and the Spanish Military Merit 3rd or 4th classes. Such awards were occasionnally made to officers having served as military attachés, but I could find no evidence to support this.

A Savoye de Puineuf family still exists in Etusson. (Bottin mondain 1999).

A very nice picture of a good looking officer.

Regards

Veteran

Very interesting that you bought the medals - must have been a surprise to find them being talked about on GMIC ?

Anyway - welcome to the Forum - now that you have the medals I think we would appreciate a photo ? Oh, Yes ! You should certainly start collecting again before the prices really take-off in a year or, so....

Congratulations for this excellent buy. I was tempted to go for it, but the medals are really out of my collecting field. Could haven been a good investment, too.

It is nice to know that they are in good and understanding hands. Hope you enjoy having them for a long time.

Regards

Veteran

Hello everyone

Happy New Year ! May 2010 be a very successful collecting year for all of us, with lots of good collecting fellowship.

Back to this tunic. It clearly is pre-WW1. I would certainly not think that it could have been worn after WW1 or even during the war.

A Medaille militaire could be awarded for excellent long service to professionnal NCOs after 15 years continuous services. This was in no way an automatic award. There were very few medals possible in those times. My guess remains Médaille militaire + Lifesaving medal because of the different widths of ribbons suggested by the attachments.

Although a scarce pair of medals, they could have been given to an NCO in those days of peace.

Best regards

Veteran

Hello

The wider width between loops could have been meant for any kind of military award. Possibly a long service médaille militaire if the man had not served overseas. Or any colonial campaign medal if he had served with an other unit before joining the 89th Infantry Regiment.

The smaller width could have been for a Ministry of the Interior life-saving medal (Médaille d'honneur pour actes de courage et de dévouement du ministère de l'Intérieur), the ribbon of which was distinctly narrower. Such an award was occasionnally made to military recipients for a noteworthy act of courage in civilian life (stopping run-away horses for instance).

This is only a suggestion.

Very best wishes

Veteran

Excellent bar Gunner!

I never understood how a person was supposed to wear these large bars in a single row; do they go from armpit to armpit?

Really a beautiful example; do you have the full story with this officer?

Tim

Tim

There are only two possible ways of wearing a large number of full-size awards :

- either you have them mounted as shown by Christophe with ribbons and badges overlapping to some extent, wich is the British solution.

- or the French way in several rows of three or four awards sewn on a piece of dark felt, which in this case with 15/16 awards would look like an apron!

The only way out is to wear only the four or five most significant awards on one row and forget about the others.

But this may not be allowed in some Forces.

Imperial Germany had the "Prinzengross" reduced badges for official wear on the uniform. But I am not sure everyone was intitled.

The arrangement on one row still seems to be the better looking one.

Greetings and best wishes

Hello Chris

You are right about the wide variety of levels for the award of a Croix de guerre. That is why I wrote that it was "comparable" and not "identical".

The French system clearly was meant to recognise individual valour. At the time the Croix de guerre was created, no one would have known the War would go on for such a long time and so many men (and women) would be brought to show courage in the face of the ennemy.

Quite naturally some of the men at Head-Quaters would get more than their share. On the other hand, if every time you went into action your C.O. was killed or wounded, never mind what you did no one was there to put you up with a citation !

For outstanding behaviour, the award would be a Legion of honor for an officer or a Medaille militaire for NCOs and other ranks + a croix de guerre with palm. A second act of courage at the same level would be promotion to Officer of the Legion of honor for an officer or the Legion d'honneur for NCOs and ORs. This occured at times.

I don't think Allied soldiers looked down on the croix de guerre when they received one.

Cheers and best wishes

Veteran

Emanuel,

I've never seen a French medal bar, period. They wear their medals all individually pinned on the uniform. I've seen the odd attempt at a bar but since they wear their medals only 3 wide, it gets complicated and quite cumbersome really fast.

A croix de guerre is the badge indicating a "citation individuelle" (i.e.personnal mention) at various levels of command - regimental, division, army-corps, Army. A distinctive addition on the ribbon (star or palm) is used to indicate the level. Period ....

The croix de guerre is comparable to the British Military Medal and Distinguished Service Medal, the German Iron Cross, American Silver and Bronze Crosses.

No clasps were ever meant to be worn, since the various combat areas of a same war or campaign are indicaded by clasps on the appropriate commemorative medal.

The very attractive badge added on the ribbon of Tim's croix de guerre is probably a local branch badge certainly not intended for such use. Veterans were/are apt to be imaginative.

The 1914-1915 croix de guerre was given for acts of valour in the early stages of WW1. They were highly regarded. The value of the Croix de guerre was never really questioned during the War, but a very large number of men who fought well received it

Yes-he is listed on the Waterloo roll as serving with his regiment as a Lieutenant.

His full name was Alexander Adair Brice and he was made an Ensign on 8.8.1811.

He was promoted to Lt. on May 21, 1812 and lightly wounded on July 28th, 1813 in the Pyrenees while serving in the 1st battalion. (London Gazette). He served as an ADC to H. G. T. O'Laughlin in 1813-`1814 and rejoined the 23rd in late 1814.

At Waterloo the 23rd spent much of the day in square and was shot at frequently by French horse artillery. Towards the end of the battle one ball took out 25 men at once. One the whole though, the battalion didn't suffer extraordinary casualties.

Brice went on half pay in 1820.

Brice was listed in the Army List as a LT. of the 66th foot in the Yeomanry in 1860.

Thank you Ulsterman for this additional information. I really appreciate

Very best wishes

Veteran

Veteran,

He's on the MGS roll as a Lieut in the 23rd Foot entitled to a 2 clasp medal (Salamanca and Vittoria).

Paul

Thank you very much. This fast reply is greatly appreciated.

Best regards and wishes

Veteran

Hello everyone

I would be interested to know if Lieutenant A.A. BRICE served with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and could have won a Military General Service Medal as well as a Waterloo Medal.

The 23rd Foot appears to have served in both campaigns. The question rather is : was there a Lieutenant A.A. BRICE ?

Thank you

Veteran

I don't really know what to think. Could be the tip-end of a full size fourragere worn in an unusual manner.

Are you sure the ribbon you pointed to is the Croix de guerre ?

Regards

Veteran

Chris is right. The combination as shown is quite unofficial. It was made up in most cases for veterans who would wear their medals at functions such as November 11th commemoration ceremonies. It would mean that they had won a croix de guerre with one or more "citations" AND had belonged and been present in combat with a unit which had received a fouragère .

Such a veteran, should he have remained in active or reserve service with the forces would wear the full fouragere as a personnal award, wether he remained with that unit or was transfered to any other.

The same rule applied to men in the French forces who had belonged to units at the times when a U.S. Presidential Unit Citation badge was awarded. They wear (wore) the blue badge as a personnal award throughout their whole subsequent military carrier.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Veteran

Hello nesredep

This type of badge featuring an upright sword is often worn by members of one of the "promotions" (i.e.classes) of officers' or NCOs' training schools.

NARVIK refers, of course, to the Anglo-French attempt to help Norway in 1940. The viking drakkar would be for the Navy, the hunting-horn for the Chasseurs Alpins and the typical grenade for the Foreign Legion which formed together the brigade of infantry landed at Narvik. Although this was far from a victory, the epic of that campaign remains quite a reference in the mind of many Frenchmen.

Hope this helps

Best regards

Veteran

Hi Chris

I am sorry to say that I have no knowledge of professionnal researchers working at the Service Historique de l'Armée. This is far from being as well established in France as it is with our British friends.

Best regards

Paul

Can we see a certificate?

If there were 15,000 British (unengraved) medals to Sardinians and assuming KIA got medals too-then @ 6,000 Sardinian Crimean medals is a good estimate (21,000-15,000) ?

The exact number of Sardinian campaign medals for the Crimea is difficult to establish, but I have a feeling 6.000 would be very large number. 1.500 comes to my mind, but I cannot recall why. They very seldom show up at auction sales, much less I would say than the Al Valore Militare for the same campaign. One was sold in London in September (DNW auction sale, n°616) for £850 hammer price on an estimate of £300-400 !

British Crimea medals to the Sardes were often, if not always, officially engraved, exactly in the same maner the Sardinian Crimea medals were. They can be told that way, and there was one such medal in the same DNW sale (n°711). It was mistaken for a French recipient's because the ma who received it had a French sounding name (MESTRELLET) often found in Savoya, then still part of the Kingdom of Sardinia.

This has been a very interesting post up to now, and I hope more information will be forthcoming for our mutual benefit.

Veteran

Thank you Michel - that is a fantastic piece of deduction, and although not conclusive, it is very interesting.

That was CUSSONNEAU at his best....

Congratulations

Paul

Thanks Paul. Interestingly enough, I was looking at the signature on the illustration...

...and I don't know if it is the same chap, but Disderi was a daguerreotypist - My link - it says that he studied art early on. I'm not sure what the rest of the writing indicates, but maybe I shouldn't get too obsessed about all of this! The main thing for me was to find out more about why my cousin had this illustration and the eagle that is on the haussecol around his neck, in her possession, but instead I've found out plenty of other intriguing things!

Thanks again.

Alex

Disderi was a very well known Paris photographer in the mid-1850s. He made several portraits of Emperor Napoleon III. This captain must have been very well off to afford having his portrait made by Disderi, who signed the photography, the coulour touching up having been made by Parfu,who co-signed the portrait. Quite a nice piece in its own right, I would think.

Regards

Veteran

Paul and John...what stunning teamwork...thank you for that fantastic response! I think it is wonderful that you have pinned him down to date, rank, battalion and regiment! Any ideas where I might find out more info about this battalion during this period please?

Alex

The 1st Infantry Regiment as it was called at the time of this portrait (and still is) is arguably the oldest European regiment still in existence, having derived from a regiment formed in 1480.

It was not employed outside France in the period 1855-70 but it was heavily engaged against the Prussian Army in 1870 and totaly distroyed or taken prisonner.

It is presently an armoured infantry regiment stationed in Sarrebourg (Eastern France).

Regards

Paul.

John is absolutely right. I just bypassed the significant details. Sorry !

The numeral 1 on the shako could not be Garde Nationale, it has to be Regular Army.

The small round yellow addition (pompon) seen over the cocarde and red ornement was traditionnally worn by of the Line Infantry Regiments.

Most French Line Infatry Regiments has four battalions.

When in dress uniform, men and officers of the first battalion wore a dark blue woollen "pompon". The second battalion had scarlett, the third bright yellow and the fourth dark green.

This captain belonged to the 3rd Battalion of the 1rst Line Infantry Regiment between 1855 and 1870.

Regards

Paul

According to Diakov "Medals of the Russian Empire" volume 4 no 459 "For the Rescue of the Drowning" not more than 15 silver medals were awarded so extremely rare.

All the best,

Paul

Hello Paul

Nice to hear from you after a long time. Sorry you could not make to the OMRS Meeting in London in September, I had hoped to see you there.

Your help is invaluable as usual. Thank you so much, it is great news. Frankly I just happened to attend the sale and could not resist the buying urge !. Apparently a lucky break.

Very best wished and regards

Paul

Hi All,

I would like to have your help to try to understand if the document below : 'citation a l'Ordre de la Division', correspond to the award of the France WW1 Croix de Guerre + 1 Silver Star on the ribbon to an Italian Admiral that received the below document

I have attached a resized document so, if needed, I have a very High Resolution photo of the entire document that I can send only by email.

Who can give me an answer ?

Best Regards

Mauro

You are absolutely right. The croix de guerre was created to show that a citation (mention in dispatches) had been awarded. The various levels of command intitled to mention in dispatches (regimental or unit level = bronze star - divisionnal level = silver star - army corps = gilt star - further up = bronze palm). A same man would add as many stars or palms as he would receive citations. Some ace-fighter pilots would have as many as 20 palms.

Pleasant collecting !

Regards

Veteran

Hello everyone

This medal was bought recently at an auction sale in Paris. It was offered as " Life saving medal. Nicolas I. Silver, only awarded between 1825 and 1828"

Further information gathered at this time is that it was only awarded in this particular type (with the reverse legend as shown) between 1827 and 1828 when the reverse was modified.

I would be most grateful for confirmation of these first details and for all further information. It seems that it was the very first type of Russian life-saving medal and that it was only awarded during one year. Would there be any way to establish how many were really issued ? Are other medals of the same type known to exist in private or public collections (this must be the case, since Wehrich showed a picture of the obverse

This French officer is probably a captain (both épaulettes have typical light ornement). Second Empire, and certainly after 1855 (Crimean War Medal with bar). He may have won his Legion of honor in Crimea as well.

The badge around his neck is the "haussecol" worn at the time by officers when on duty. It carries the Imperial Eagle as does his képi. I cannot see anything that would tell more about the unit he belonged to. Probably Army but he might also have belonged to the Garde Nationale, which was a town militia.

That is as much as I can make of it. Hopefully, additionnal information will come forth.

Best regards

Veteran

Paul is absolutly right. Each legionnaire's story is his own, that is the basic understanding when he joins and the Legion is true to its word... even after the contract(s) is(are) completed. The rule is "we don't know who you are talking about".

The only exception is with the carreers of French regular officers attached to the Legion. Which is the case of most Foreign Legion officers. They will usually have also served with other units within the Armed Forces.

There records can be found at the Service Historique de l'Armée in Vincennes, near Paris.

There are very rare exceptions. I have the records of an Spaniard who was an officer and ended his carreer as a general after he received French citizenship. He then was considered to be a Regular Army officer.

There is also the case of this New-Zeelander who was a Lieutenant-Colonel with the Regiment de Marche de la Légion étrangère during the First World War.

Veteran