Veteran

Thank you very much for this answer. Now that you mention it I think I can guess the dark greenish colour of the beret. Makes better sense to me.

A very, very nice group. Congratulations

Veteran

Very nice group indeed ! And quite a record in combat - six mentions and five wounds + médaille militaire to a caporal !.

The CERTIFICAT DE BONNE CONDUITE is very appealing, never saw that type before.

The BLACK beret makes me wonder at what time the green beret became regulation for Foreign Legion units. Any answer to that ? In my time it was either the kaki bonnet de police (or the "green and red cock's crest" for NCO's & officers) or the white képi for the rank and file.

Regards

Veteran

Thank you very much Mervyn. The badge is a very good looking one. It came in a lot with a copy (so marked) AIR FORCE MEDAL and DEFENSE & 1939-45 WAR MEDALS.

Regards

Paul

Hello

From the looks of that badge, and provided it is same period as the case, I would think it is gold. You should be able to spot the gold hallmark (an eagle's head) somewhere on the metal parts of the obverse or the reverse. Most often you will find it on the ribbon's end dangling from the lower part of the laurel wreath.

If you find a "boar's head" hallmark similar to the one shown by Tim B the metal is silver gilt. Commander's badges in silver gilt have existed since Napoleon III and possibly earlier, but a commander's level was sufficiently advanced to warrant a gold badge in the opinion of most recipients. Don't forget that Frenchmen have to buy their insigna, recipients are given a diploma certifying their right to wear them.

Sincerely

Veteran

Jaybo

Original archives of the Order were destroyed in 1871 when the Paris Commune uprising burned the Chancery of the Legion of honor.

Individual records of an Napoleonic Armies officer can be found at the Service Historique de l'Armée at Vincennes, near Paris. If he received the Legion of honor, this should appear on his records. You would have to know his name and given name.

If this recipient was not an officer, then you would have to know where he was born or where he lived at the time of his conscription. The local archives (Archives départementales) would hopefully have his records.

You can also go on the website Leonore maintained by the Chancery of the Legion of honor. A number of past awards are being gradually found and added. But it remains very incomplete.

I am not aware of professionnally organised research in this field, although Family History researchers do exist.

Hope this helps. Good luck !.

Veteran

Thanks Alex

This is a very useful start. It came with a WW2 set of medals but it could have been older (number 18 on reverse 1918?). I hope more informations will be forthcoming.

Best regards

Paul

Hello everyone

This small (lapel?) badge is 33x21mm. Gilt metal and enamel. Reverse carries a vertical pin and the maker's mark : M.W. MILLER Ltd B'HAM. 18

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29th Fighter Squadron has a long story dating back to WW1, and I believe it is still operational. Would it be possible to establish what period this particular badge might be ? 1918 ? WW2 ? Later ?

Thank you

Hello everyone

love4history recently bemoaned the absence of Dutch related material on the Forum. I therefore dig up this post which was discussed to some extent two years ago, without really getting an answer.

The question still is : what could be this badge ? Are any other of the same kind known to exist in private or public collections.

Thank you for your kind attention to my question.

Best regards to all members on this forum.

Veteran

Hi Paul

Wow sure got my facts all wrong. I didn't know the Tirailleurs were formed into regiments in the Italian Campaign. Were the Turcos treated equally as the other French line regiments? Were many AVM's awarded to the Tirailleurs? I suppose the Austrians must have been in shock to encounter an enemy they have never seen before.

Sincerely

Brian

Brian

The Regiment of Tirailleurs (nicknamed "Turcos") were engaged in the Crimean campaign and received 7 AVMs, 2 of which went to native Algerians (one sergeant and one bugler).

114 AVMs went to the Tirailleurs for the Campaign in Italy, but I have no idea how many were awarded to native Algerians. A conservative estimate would be 10 to 20. This was a generous batch, quite comparable to the numbers allotted to other Infantry units, and possibly more than some all French regiments received.

In both instances, the Sardinian Government made a number of medals available for the French Army to decide who would be honored. Offical lists were submitted and the appropriate diplomas issued by the Sardinians.

Tirailleurs were popular with the general public in France who thought they were exotic. Their officers saw that the Regiments were properly treated and the men were warriors to their families. Since fighting in Algeria practically never stopped between 1830 and 1870 the best French officers were keen on having a command with them.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul

Didn't know the Zouaves Regiments were known to be elite. In the early stages of the American Civil War both sides raised Zouave Regiments but there were no North Africans in the ranks. Certainly the South would never tolerate arming an African. Any Yankee (White) officer captured in an all black regiment was executed by the South, tells you their code of ethics. Strange how the South had no problem displaying their soldiers in this traditional African style of uniform. The time to be extra cautious when finding an AVM is to an exotic regiment, good advice to remember. Ahhhh very happy with my wet cat

Sincerely

Brian

Brian

Zouave regiments were exclusively maned by European soldiers, but they belonged to the French Army in Africa, at least originally. "Native" troups were the Tirailleurs also called Turcos, with mostly European non-coms and European officers.

The fighting reputation of the Zouaves was such that a number of other countries wished to have units by that namt (including American and Papal Zouaves).

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul

I apologize after taking a closer inspection your were right his name is CHAMOUILLE. The C looks a bit like the G which explains my silly mistake. That is neat that there is a good chance the village is named after his family. Glade to hear that his Regiment was in Italy at that time The fakes are the medal itself or are the forgers using orginal struck pieces and inscribing a fraudulent dedication? Safe to say the fakes would be to the Imperial Guard?

Sincerely

Brian

Brian

Don't get me wrong. Chamouillé's family name possibly came from the fact that they moved from that village to another location, and were nicknamed Chamouillé; village names antidated surnames all over Europe.

Fakes have always existed. The very famous Côte collection sold in 1914 from which came Capt. AUBRY's AVM had two fake AVMs for the Crimea : one silver to a "cantinière" with the 2nd Zouaves and a bronze specimen named to an Algerian Tirailleur (bronze AVMs were only created during WW1). The Zouaves were very popular, considered to be crack regiments, and the Tirailleurs (sometimes refered to as "Turcos" in those days) had an attractive oriental flavor.

This being said, I would agree that AVMs for the Italian campaign to line or artillery regiments would have good chances to be genuine. Moreover period medals have a look and feel of their own. Naturally, very good fakes will go undetected. In doubt, a second opinion can be very useful.

Regards

Paul

Brian

I confirm that the 9th Artillery Regiment was in Italy as part of the 3rd Army Corps. 13 AVMs were awarded to this Regiment on March 16th 1860 and a further 52 on March 20th. Which makes a total of 65 to the Regiment.

Your guner's name might rather be : CHAMOUILLE (sounds in French like "chat mouillé" = wet cat !). In fact, the name of a village in Eastern France, possibly were his family originally came from.

I have the general list of AVMs for Italy broken down to unit level. I cannot ascertain that this man was on the list, but few fakes are known to exist, and they would rather be to other types of units.

Regards

Paul

Hi Veteran

Great news that you are able to confirm the award. As I understand from Liverpool the Regiment took a huge amount of casualties which would make the medal much more attractive to collectors or is there a larger interest in Foreign Legion medals. Or perhaps a combination of both and would explin the price. I purchased an Italian Campaign Al Valor given to a Frenchman for a fraction of 5000 and as you point out many more were issued then the Crimea awards. I don't know if that is a ( Crimea Al Valor ) good price or not any idea? Do you know if Captin Aubry received the Legion Of Honour? I have noticed several styles of engraving on the 1859 Italian Campign some neatly done some not. Now I know why Thanks for informing me

Sincerely

Brian

Brian

Glad you enjoyed the information. Foreign Legion material is very scarce and extremely popular because of the Regiment's legend. The number of AVM for the Crimea to each regiment in the French Army varied between 10/15 for the infantry and 5/10 for cavalry and other types of units. Since there was only one Legion regiment and 40 line regiments, the proportion is easy to compute.

Whether the price requested is steep or not is for the market to tell. If it goes, the price was right. For a Foreign Legion avid collector it might well be the once in a life-time. It all depends how deep is one's pocket, I guess.

Italian AVMs for the campaign in Italy sell well into the 700/1200 Euros. An officer's might make more. But they don't turn up that often either.

These AVM have the added appeal of being named, which just did not exist in the French award system.

Incidentally, if you tell me the name on your AVM for Italy, I might be able to tell you how many were issued to that unit.

Regards

Veteran

Hello PK

Very unusual "livret militaire". I am fascinated by the list of "strange" awards appearing on that last page. The "décoration" he is intitled to is the Médaille coloniale with "agrafe en vermeil".

Everything listed below the line after his adress has been added later in the wrong place. On the other hand, most of it looks "period". I just cannot help wondering...

Veteran

Hi Veteran

You must have some excellent reference books that give such details . Perhaps you can suggest some books that would be a help for me on this subject. You can see the medal itself at www.liverpoolmedals.co.uk Look under Italian section. As I recall it was around 3 thousand pounds. I think the medal is orginal but I'm no expert. With the German State medals that are rare you really need to be very careful perhaps with the Al Valor copies don't exist. You can look at the names from your list & see if there is a match from the dealers one .

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Yankee

I have a photocopy of the original list of AVMs awarded to the French for the Crimea. The Crimean AVM to Capitaine AUBRY sold by Liverpool Medals is the absolute original and the price is there also (£3.495 ! = $5.500). The pictures are good and the naming is identical to Lt.Col. Martinez's AVM.

Namings on AVMs to Frenchmen for the Crimean campaign were all made by the same contractor and can easily be recognized.

This is no so for the Italian campaign AVMs which were named by their owners or possibly a number of units. Naval officers' AVMs were often not named at all, many of them just not bothering. Naming of AVM to naval petty-officers and ratings, on the other hand, might well have been contracted to one same firm, as the few medals known seem to be engraved in the same script .

All very interesting. Thank you

Veteran

Hello Yankee

That AVM to an Foreign Legion officer would certainly have attracted much attention and made a very good price : only 12 AVM to the 2nd Foreign Regiment, 10 of which went to officers : Colonel de Chabrière, Lt.Colonel Martinez (I happen to know where it is), 2 Majors (Chefs de bataillons), 4 Captains, one Lieutenant and one Second Lieutenant.

Do you remember what price was asked for it ?

Regards

Veteran

Victor-Emmanuelle II awarded 1.200 Al Valore Militare (AVM) medals to the French for the Crimean campaign (Spedizione d'Oriente). Only very few to Naval personnel (17 to guners who maned naval guns engaged during the siege of Sebastopol, all were petty officers or ratings + 2 to officers at GHQ)

8.000 AVM were awarded to the French Army + an unknown number to the French Navy for the Italian war. They are all engraved with the caption, in French "GUERRE D'ITALIE".

Crimean AVMs are very scarce on the market. A review published a few years ago by Tony Margrave, an outstanding scholar of th Crimean War suggested only about 150 of them are known in various collections.

Regards

Veteran

Hello Yankee

To answer your earlier question about Al Valore Militare medals to other ships, I personnally know of at least two : "Le Descartes" and "La Ville de Paris". There are others, but I have not yet been able to get to the file (if it exists) at the Naval Archives establishment in Vincennes.

A French naval squadron was sent to the Adriatic to check the Austrian Navy who had ports in Trieste and Pola.

Regards

Veteran

I fully agree (as usual !) with Bison's translation of the inscription

As an addition, a Premier Maître in the French Navy is the equivalent of a Petty Officer in the Royal Navy. The caption MAN folowing the rank means "de manoeuvre", namely the members of the ship's company in charge of sailing the ship. Other specialties being guners, stokers, etc..

The ship shown on the post-card was a later battle-cruiser class with the same name (Vauban was a well known War Minister of Louis XIV best known for his talent to fortify cities). "Le Vauban" of Italian campaign times was a paddle frigate.

Very nice medals these Al Valore Militare. King Victor-Emmanuel II was genereous with them to the French, but those to the Navy don't come up very often.

Regards

Veteran

And here is the reverse (just a little bit late, since Ulsterman has found an illustration).

The very frayed ribbon is possibly an original. Same coulours as the the British medal, but notably wider to fit the suspender.

Hello Hugh,

Thank you for your encouragements and directions.

This is the obverse of the Sardinian Crimea campaign medal issued to the Sardinian/Piemontese troups who could not receive a British Crimean campaing medal because of the shortage. It was known as "la medaglia sarda di Crimea il 15 giuni 1856". In 1857 the Minister in charge of War (who was in command of the Sardinian troups in the Crimea" wrote " Il numero della medaglia inglese di Crimea nonessendo sufficiente per fregiarne tutti i milltari, che si recarono in Oriente prima dell'8 settembre 1855, questo Ministero provederà accio coloro, a cui non possa essere la medessima assegnata, ricevaro quella che S.M. ordinava fosse coniata col l'Augusta sua effigie, e la quale verrà pure distribuita al militari,che prestarono servizio agli Stabilimenti sul Bosforo".

The engraver's signature is : G. FERRARIS

Hugh

That beautiful picture you show is the TURKISH Crimean campaign medal, with the special reverse intended to be awarded to Sardinian troups. The Italian flag is shown to the right of the Turkish flag and the legend is in Italian : LA CRIMEA.

Two other such medals exist for the British (legend : CRIMEA) and for the French (LA CRIMEE). The appropriate flags in the position of the Italian flag on your specimen.

All three types have a pinkish-red ribbon with green borders.

The Sardinian Crimean campaign medal shows the left profile of King Vittorio Emmanuelle II on the obverse and the legend CRIMEA 1854-1855 on the reverse.

The ribbon is identical to the British Crimean medal light blue with yellow borders.

I am truly sorry I cannot get the picture on this thread.

Regards

Veteran

Well, according to my research (flounderings) about 20,000 Italian troops and naval personnel were involved in the Crimean war and this seems to jive with the 15,000 strong expeditionary force sent off. On would presume @20,000 Italian medals? they certainly seem rare and are THE most expensive Italian campaign medal extant ($650 in Vernons' Guide-OF 1990!).

Groups to infantry men (a few of whom later joined the imperial French army after Nice/Savoy was split between Italy and France in 1860) seem to include the Italian Unification medal, the Crimea medal, a British Crimean medal and a Turkish Crimea medal .

Ulsterman,

I had forgotten Vernon's evaluation. It would probably apply to the Sardinian Crimea medal. It agrees with the price realised at DNW a fortnight ago for an un-named specimen.

If 15.000 Sardinian troups went to the Crimea, that should be the maximum number of British medals sent out. But it must have been less, since King Victor-Emmanuel II had to coin a complement of medals for all his men to have one. Would a count such as 10.000/12.000 British medals + 3.000/5.000 Sardinian strikes sound reasonnable ?

As a final thought, I doubt that any Italian group could have included both the British and the Sardinian issues for the Crimean. It should be one or the other, don't you think?

A very enjoyable thread.

Best regards

Veteran

Post WW1 issues are VERY SCARCE. They might be recognisable by their darker toned metal and possible Paris Mint Hallmark.

Both the medals shown earlier on this thread are identical to the medal I also have. It is without any marking at all, either maker's ou hallmark. The ribbon has a very particular shean, possibly some kind of artificial fabric.

I have a hunch that all these medals were in fact struck in UK during the war and released by the French administration a few years after WW2. There is no proof of this.

Hope this helps.

Vetean

Thank you very much Elmar.

I now have a very good translation of the naming of this medal. Very impressed with the quality of response found on this website. I am now very curious to know how many of these Sardinian Crimea medals were issued.

Best regards

Veteran