Veteran

Since 1810 or about, the Ministry of Interior (Home Office) awards life-saving medals. In 1827, the Admiralty (Ministere de la Marine) was made responsible for all acts of gallantry and humanitiy at sea, with its own life-saving medals. This explains the differences between the two Napoleon III medals shown by Hendrik, the smaller being iNTERIOR and the other MARINE;

Each new regime has changed the obverses of the medals given while they existed.

From 1852 until 1857 the uncrowned effigy or Napoleon III looked to the left. In 1857/58 the effigy was bore a laurel crown. stil looking left. About 1864/65 the laurelled effigy was turned to the right until the end of the Second Empire in 1870.

I hope this answers the question asked by TacHel.

Michael,

This has been a tale for many years. They MAY have existed, but if so they could only have been the initiative of some manufacturer of crosses.

Later awards of the Croix de Guerre were the Croix de guerre des Territoires d'Opérations Extetieures.

The OFFICIAL date combinations for the French 1914-1918 Croix de guerre were : 1914-1915 1914-1916 1914-1917 1914-1918, this last combination being the final and official reverse ever since the end of the War..

I hope this helps.

Veteran

Art

I fully agree that the names of the recipients of the medals shown on this excellent site (Dave's?) are vietnamese. Nothing shows that they are not straighforward metropolitan medals awarded to vietnamese employees of metropolitan french firms or employers.

And nothing shows they have anything to do with French Indochina.

One possibility : vietnamese employees of french families or french firms who followed their employers to France when the French left Indochina after the war. They could have claimed the medals for them after 25 years services and still being employed. This would have to be demonstrated, but the names of all beneficiaries of such medals have always been formally published in the Journal Officiel or the more recent "Bulletin officiel des Decorations, Medailles et Recompenses".

Hope this helps

Paul

This is an interesting medal. The name is clearly Vietnamese but the issued medal is typically metropolitan France, definitely not a colonial design.. I would think it is a metropolitan medal to a vietnamese employee of a French firm in France.

A picture of the obverse might possibly help.

All the best

Veteran

I am sad to see the picture of a man wearing a uniform which looks like a Foreign Legion uniform with such a silly set of hardware.

The Legion d'honneur and Medaille miltaire he possibly earned deserve to be worn with a respectable set of awards, and not down graded by a lot of junk. He would never have passed the gates of a Foreign Legion camp looking like such a clown..... and he certainly would have known better.

I know I am not very polite. Sorry ! Its just that I wore that uniform many decades ago, and the picture makes me sick.

The officer on horseback shown with the 30th Artillerie is a Colonel or a Lt.Colonel wearing a pre-1914 uniform.

A chevalier in the Legion of honor, he wears his badge on everyday service uniform as was a rule in those days. Simple ribbons were introduced during WW1 when the French saw the British wearing them.

Hope this answers your question.

(I can offer no explaination about the apparent salute to a beer-wagon, sorry !)

Thank you both very much. I apologize for this late reply to your most interesting and useful comments ( computer troubles !!).

I will attempt to get in touch with the Museum of London, as suggested by Mervyn. If and when I get an answer, I will be happy to report back to this post.

The genereous information about the officials mentioned on the reverse of the cross given by Taz brings a lot of added interest to this piece. i wonder if there has been anything published about the circumstances of these "awards" given by the City of London ?

Further information, if available, will again be gratefully received.

Best regards

Paul

Hello all,

This silver (?) gilt cross with the coat of arms of the City of London is a minor mystery. It measures 38 mm (1,5 inch?) across; I just cannot remember when, where or why I picked it up, and it is now staring into my face.

The obverse center is engraved with the coat of arms of the City of London.

The reverse is also engraved with :

- the name F.CROSLEY Esq. on the upper arm,

- the caption The Rt HONble / F. BESLEY / LORD MAYOR / J. AUSTON Esq. Aldm / J. VALLENTINE Esq. ALD / SHERIFFS on the center.

- the date 1869 on the lower limb of the cross.

No hallmark to be seen. The attatchment ring swivells.

It obviously is carefully made and engraved as a token of appreciation would be; What could it really be ?

The slightest bit of information will be gratefully received.

All the best

Veteran

Hello Les and Paul

Generally speaking, Baltic Medals are rather unusual, if not scarce, on the French market. This to say that I personnally cannot remember seing or hearing of a French made medal.

French made Crimean Medals of course exist, but they don't turn up all that frequently. They usually sell at a premium. But French made Baltics...

They possibly exist. But as Paul says, the French manufactured medals are easy to spot : they NEVER swivell, often have a "boar's head" hallmark and are struck on thinner flans.

I would agree with Paul : the medal Les refers to is probably genuine.

All the best

Paul

Chris is right about serving soldiers receiving awards without having to pay for them. This is taken care of by regimental "pocket money" which could also be spent any other way at the C.O.'s decision. This stems from the fact military personnel are expected to wear their awards by order under given circumstances.

In usual official or civilian life, it is quite a custom for friends to chip in and buy a badge for a new recipient. This is one reason why different qualities can be found, in order to provide badges for a range of prices. Napoleon III gave a diamond studded grand cross of the Legion of honor (similar to his own) to his Prime Minister as a personnal token of appreciation... it is shown in the Legion of honor Museum in Paris. (if you have a chance to visit, don't miss it).

When a foreign VIP is honored, the badges are of course a gift from the French Government. General Birdwood, for instance, who commanded the Allied Forces in Gallipoli and Dardanelles was presented with a superb gold Grand Cross of the Legion of honor with its named breast star.

If a parade is arranged when awards are to be officially presented, recipients are requested to bring their badges ahead of time and they are properly set on a tray with the names. From what I have observed, it seems to work all right.

The system may seem strange ; it simply is different. It stems from the fact that an award is considered to be an honor and a certificate is issued to make it official. The badge is the just sign the wearer was awarded this honor.

I hope this helps. Best regards

Veteran

This is a very well made Medaille militaire. Collectors in France sometimes refer to such luxury items as "médaille des généraux", simply because they were quite expensive to buy.

The award is by status restricted to non-commissioned officers and rankers in the French Armed forces. Officers NEVER receive it with ONE EXCEPTION. The médaille militaire is awarded to generals who have commanded armies and brought them to victory. Such general officers must have received the Grand Cross of the Legion of honor previously to receiving the médaille militaire, which in this case is the highest french military award.

It is generally understood that such generals would wear the very best medaille militaire available. One should remember that the french tradition is that recipients of orders and decorations buy their own badges (or friends arrange to present them with the award, sometimes it will be the military unit)/

But there is NO OFFICIAL ISSUE AS SUCH. But a general (and they were very few to be awarded a Médaille militaie) would probably like to wear a nicer one.

Such fine médailles militaires are prized by collectors of course. But they could have been worn by anyone who was intitled and had the money to buy one.

Regards,

Veteran

Paul, you probably are right about the number or awards you quote, as is clicks with the earlier information reporting 182 Indian chiefs receiving the medal. Thank you again.

Thank you too, Peter, for the additionnal information about the Indian warriors. This part of history is absolutly fascinating ! Looking at the medal on my desk, I can imagine the pride of the man who received it.; and from the looks of it, several generations of his descendants must have worn it with pride.

Finding this medal was fun, finding out about it is even better ....

Best regards

Veteran

Hello Paul

Thank you for this additionnal information. The warriors who were still living when the Military General Service Medal was created must have been only a fraction of the true numbers in 1811-1814, And only a fracton of that would have been able to apply or be put up for the medal.

I wonder if any one has an idea of the number of these larger medals awarded.

Your help is, as usual, highly appreciated.

Personnal regards

Paul

Thanks Michael,

It certainly seems that the American Indian people were quite a number in the early XIX's. The list you state is most interesting.

Does any one know how many braves actually joined the British and Canadian regiments in the 1811 War ? All the Indian tribes may not have decided to help.

Best regards

Veteran

Hello Mervn

Thank you very much for arrangeing the change.

Now that it is where I should have put it in the first place, I hope this medal will benefit from further information coming from other members of the Club in Canada or eslewhere

IrishGunner remarked that finding it in Paris was unexpected.... I fully agree. Apparently some pieces have a life of their own.

Cordialement

Veteran

Moderator

I apologize for posting this item in the "Colonial" group of notices.

Could it please be transfered to : "Commonwealth Realms" just below where it probably belongs?,

Thank you very much

Veteran

Hi Larry

Thanks for the tip about this perfect piece presently on sale, in the USA.. I had seen it , but I don't really put mine in the same category, even if I rather like the way its wear testifies for its long and probably proud wear by its owner.

Also on Google I found reference of an other well,worn one which sold at auction in July. It went for 7.200 Can.$$$, but I could not find where this happened.

The fun of it all was to find it and pick it up. And now, I am wondering about Indians in Canada two hundred years ago.! Can anyone help me with that;,

I am grateful for the information..

Veteran

Thank you, Spasm, you certainly have a lead there. 182 medals is a very credible number, depending of course on the known numbers of Indian warriors who joined in with the British to check the American attack. Do we have much information about that ?.

It is known that the 1814 medal was awarded in three sizes, one would think the larger ones would have been one third of the lot at the most. Which would mean about 60 awards or less. A very interesting first approach.

I am very grateful. Further information will hopefully come up. It will be just as gratefully received.

Veteran

Thank you for the information.

Larry : This is the larger size approx. 75 millimeters. The suspension loop hax been obviously replace by local a local craftsman.

Irish Gunner : ilt was bought from a dealer in Paris. I happened to recognize it, having bought the Jamieson when it was published. It is the second piece which has come my way in nearly a half-century collecting, the other being a smaler later one...

I still wonder how many were awarded. Does anyone have a clue ?

Veteran

This large (3"+) silver medal was awarded in 1814 to Friendly Indian Chiefs who, in 1811, helped the British Forces repulse the American attempt to invade Canada; It was described by Jamieson and illustrated (fig.24)

It has been very much worn and polished.....

Does anyone know how many were issued ?

Every bit of information will be gratefully received.

Best regards to all

Veteran

Hello again

I believe I was mistaken when I stated yesterday that the medal to Dr. Kovache was bronze. It really is in gilt silver, 32 mm. diameter across. Does it make it the "gold" medal ?

I hope this picture proves useful to you.

Best regards

Veteran

Hello Herr General

It's been a long time since these messages were exchanged, and I am sorry I could not answer your request of a picture of the medal. Things have developped since, and I have found a lengthy account of the incident.

It was, indeed, carefully written up in a book intitled :"Lloys Medals 1816-1989" by a gentleman called Jim GAWLER. Dr Kovache certainly saved the lives of at least three Greek sailors and contributed to save eight more.

As soon as I lay hands on the medal, I will be happy to let you have a picture. This medal is bronze, not the gold level you were researching.

All the best

Veteran

Hello Karsten

Your remark about this picture having been taken in Germany is interesting. Could he have been a 1870/1871 prisonner of war detained in Germany and photographed there ?

Regards:

Veteran

Hello Leutwein

You are right to think that this picture is a French soldier of sort. The Medaille militaire he is wearing is distinctly IInd Empire (1851-1870), which also means he is a non-commissionned officer or a ranker.

The second medal looks more like one of the French campaign medals of the same period (probably Italy, but it could also be China or Mexican campaigns, the ribbon is too difficult to make out); The British Crimea medal is a larger one with a very distinctive ribbon attachment which is missing on this picture.

Hard to say if he was a Foreign Legionnaire, but I rather doubt it.

Hope this helps.

Veteran

Hello hipnos

You ar quite right. This man's régiment is the 10th Regiment d'infanterie de ligne, frequently shortenned to "de ligne".

All these named medals are fascinating. The French were very appreciative of the British Crimea Medal (known as "Médaille de S.M. la Reine d'Angleterre") since no true campaign medal had ever been issued to French troups to be worn (the Medaille de Saint-Helene was a different proposition).

The French were also very taken by the naming on the campaign medals they had seen worn by the British. This explains why a large number of the Crimean medals given them were privately named. This was continued by a smaller number of French military when the first true french campaigh medal was issued for the war against Austria in support of the Sardinians.

It seems, on the other hand, that the British Crimea medal issued to Sardinian troups were officially named by the Sardinian authorities. This remains to be clearly proved, but a number of these medals named to Sardinian troups from various regiments have an identical naming style.

Best regards

Veteran