Veteran

Hello Lilo

As related in the earlier messages, these enameled badges were probably made up by French jewelers at the request of the few people who had been awarded the order without insignia by the Turks.

This was a TRUE AWARD. The insignia were made up for those few recipients who felt they needed a European type of badge to show for it. And since the awards were official and the badges worn by those who had received them, Perrot et al. reproduced what existed.

I believe the Perrot was mostly intended to be used by diplomatic service members in order to recognise the various orders which had flourished all over Europe in the early 1800s. Not really meant for collectors which possibly did not exist in those days.

In other words, real award and imaginative badges.

It still makes them very scarce and collectors of orders and medals of that period seem to like them. I do and I have immensly enjoyed this learned discussion.

Regards

Veteran

To be honest, the answer about the Adrian helmet was an easy one. The other questions I am unable to answer, but I rather doubt French troups wore helmets in Syria in the '20s.

I could not even say exactly what they wore.

Regards

Veteran

^{Thank you very much for the useful information received from both of you. I really appreciate.}

^{Antonio, according to the pictures you sent, my impression is that the cross I showed is the Carlist 3rd class Caridad badge. Was that an order ? If so, for how long would you think it was awarded? I am, of course, trying to establish its relative rarity and I cannot remember seeing one on sale.}

^{Best regards}

^Veteran

Hello

This small silver and enamel badge has been in my collection for decades, and I suddenly realize that I don't really know what it is .

Every bit of information will be gratefully received

Regards

Veteran

Hello Panzerpioner

To my knowledge, there was no such nonsense in the 1940-44 period. The Spanish Civil War was much too close for any of that.

Regards

The Adrian helmet was issued to French troops from September 1915 on. Your grandfather would probably have worh the horizon blue képi.

I believe kaki uniforms were only worn by colonial troops, which the Foreign Legion were not really. But this could be argued.

The French general decorating him is probably General GOURAUD who lost his right arm in the Dardanelles campaigh.

Hello

This type of ribbon was first used with post 1870-71 veterans' societies. The helmet on the clasp is XIXth century for a fireman. In those days it was quite usual for French firemen to have weapons such as the rifles also shown on the badge.

My gess would therefore rather be the Hon. Secretary of a French firefighters' association, pre-WW1, badge.

Just an (educated?) guess.

Veteran

Hello

Nice pre-1913 Colonial Medal with first type TONKIN clasp, Paris Mint issue. Awarded for services in Tonkin (Northen Indochina) between 1893 and 1913 when this type of clasp was replaced by a simpler one.

The ribbon might also be period.

Nice medai.

Hello Bernhard

Nice to have your opinion. I would like to put in two additionnal remarks to your message.

I believe Secretain, who was the Tranmission Officer of the Regiment de Marche de la Legion Etrangere (R.M.L.E.) when I was serving with the Regiment, was rather the C.O. of the Bataillon Etranger de Parachutistes (B.E.P.) which he had created in Indochina. I have never heard mention that he was with the 13e D.B.L.E.

As you say, the French Army always makes sure that disbanded units with a glorious past have an "heir". This is usually an other Regiment, or a part of a unit (Company or Batallion) who takes over the battle honors of the dissolved unit. This is why the 3rd Regiment Etranger d'Infanterie (3e R.E.I.) now serving in Guyana wears the U.S. Presidential Unit Citation badge we earned in 1944/1945; That regiment is the "heir" of the R.M.L.E.

Best regards.

Veteran

Chris

I am glad you found this information. The Foreign Legion is a professionnal part of the French Forces. As such it is used as the French Government sees appropriate. Legionnaires know that, as they know they can individually be posted in whatever unit of the Legion is necessary; Part of the contract, remember ? The Regiment de Marche de la Legion Etrangère became the 3rd Regiment Etranger d'Infanterie overnight in July 1945;

The move from Djibouti was overdue, the people there wishing to have less French military presence. We can all understand that, as we can understand that men who had developped strong ties with local people would gripe at the change. That is just human nature,

The "shell" 13 DBLE is still the 13 DBLE; To be brought up to fighting strength if needed the day it is. C'est la Legion, mon ami! Serve where ordered!.

Best regards

Veteran

Hi Chris

Are you sure the 13e DBLE is being disolved ? I have read it was to be moved from Côte des Somalis to some other assignment..

The Half-Brigade are sorry they leave that part of Africa where they have been stationed for a very long time. Understandable ! On the other hand, they were "lent" to an foreign if friendly country which is quite free to feel it can do without the French.

More later ?

Regards

Veteran

Hello Brian

If your man served with the 2nd Tirailleurs de Marche, he may have been killed in the very first days of the battle of Verdun. That regiment was part of the reinforcements which were rushed up and checked the German onslaught in February 1916..

My own father was a second lieutenant in that regiment and was badly wounded rallying men who were falling back after all their officers had been killed. They stopped the Germans at "la Côte du Poivre".

If Beucler was killed at that time, his grave may never be found. His body might have disappeared or been buried in a mass grave such as Douaumont.

Regards

Veteran

Hello

Thank you for posting;

Could you possibly transcribe the inscriptions on both sides of this plaque ? Your picture gives a good view of the piece itself, but the writting is unfortunately unreadeable.

Regards

Veteran

Hello Iver

This badge is quite common, but I could not tell if the one you show is recent or not.

I don't have the slightest idea of its market value, but I rather doubt it would make 20 Euro on eBay ! But then, one never knows..

Hope this helpq

Veteran

Hello Iver

This is the lapel badge for a member of the "Societe d'entraide des membres de la Legion d'honneur". All members of the Legion of honor have a right and are encouraged to join.

The Society is a private organisation (with close links with the Chancery of the Order) the object of which is to give mutual support to all members, especially to those who might be in financial need. It also maintains three very nice residential hotels, one of them in Nice on the "Promenade des Anglais".called "la Villa des Officiers".

Each branch arranges local social events so that members of the order meet other members living in the same area.

In other words, this badge is related to the Legion of honor, but is not properly speaking an award.

Hope this helps.

Veteran

Chris

Thank you for your message. I can see why I got mixed up between the French historical reference to the FFL and the looser language used on this forum.

Regards

Veteran

Congratulations Bernhard for attending this memorable occasion. Your pride is understandable and I am sure your presence was a great event for this officer's family and friends.

Thank you for sharing this with us.

Amitiés légionnaires

Veteran (who also served, with the R.M.L.E.)

Ulsterman

I hope you wont mind me butting in a little.

This man apparently NEVER belonged to the FFL (Forces Françaises Libres). In fact, he was among the Legionnaires who did not stay with De Gaulle in June of 1940.

This seems to be proved by his "Vichy" ribbon to the Croix de guerre, a quite unconceaveable occurence for a Free French.

I fully agree with the group. This is an outstanding group.

Regards to all

Veteran

Does anyone know how to obtain records of FFL soldeirs who were killed in the First World War?

This would be quite impossible since the FFL only existed during WW2

I rather doubt there would be an official list of members of the Forces Françaises Libres who were killed in action in WW2. You might like to try the Association des Français Libres. They probably have a website.

Best of luck.

Veteran

TacHel is right. This badge (I would not think it is an award of any kind) could have been worn by a group of pilgrims from the diocese of Nantes in Western France;

A few collectors of such items do exist and a book on french religious awards and badges was published some time ago (sorry, the name escapes my mind)..

Veteran

Dolfek

You can clearly see the differences between the two strickings, The newer was made by the Paris Mint - it is perfectly official..

Most advanced collectors will prefer the one you first showed, since it would have better chances to have been worn by a soldier who earned it.

Having both types on the same post should prove useful to a number of other collectors.

Regards

Veteran

.

Hello

I addition to the information given, may I add that the Legion of honor Museum (Musée de la Légion d'honneur et des ordres de chevaleries) is an absolute must. It is open Wednesday to Sunday inclusive in the afternoon. Expect to spend a couple of hours there. Don't forget to pull the drawers under the display windows....The material displayed is unique, recently enriched by loans from the Spada Collection. French AND other countries orders and medals are on view. UNIQUE; Entrance is free and they have a nice shop near the entrance.

If you are interested in XIXth century art, just walk across the piazza and go to the Musée d'Orsay.

Close to Napoleon's tomb is the Musée de l'Ordre de la Libération with a lot of orders & medals related to WW2; They are open afternoons but better check opening hours;

Hope you enjoy your visit

Veteran

Both styles have been used at times. But in all cases the "particule" de or d' is always written in small letters, never capitals : Vicomte d'Aiglun.

Greetings

Veteran

Hello Chris

It was not quite so cut-and-dry. The French felt the same way about men (and women) who had been Killed in action as the British did. They reacted differently.

Il was felt that when someone had given his/her life for the Country he/she deserved the highest level of recognition. This was the Médaille militaire for all ranks except commissioned officers. But the Médaille militaire was also very much like the MSM and given for long and distinguished services. This was why the Croix de guerre was always added.

Commissionned officiers received the Legion d'honneur since they were not eligible for the Médaille militaire + Croix de guerre for the same reasons.

This special recognition had to be requested by the next-of-kin and they were set apart from the other awards. A citation was issued mentioning the dates and places where the men had fallen, so justifying the Croix de guerre.

So it was not all that automatic.

Regards

Veteran