lilo

Bearing in mind that we don't know for sure which medal it was, then YES.

Generally, for Swedish medals you shouldn't use the special suspension as a unique identifier. In Denmark it is known as "the Swedish suspension" and seems to appear and diappear on various Swedish medals. Heck, even a Danish Medal of Recompense awarded to a Swede was equipped with "the Swedish suspension"...

/Mike

Hi Mike,

Many thanks for your continuos and very precious Help !

Best Regards

Lilo

Hi Mike,

I please you to see and read the article I have attached below. I took it from another forum and the person who posted it stated to have taken it from the 'Military Chest magazine' (half 80's).

I have underlined in red the relevant part in which it is stated that :

Quote

"One of his (T. Dorling) medals is the Gold Medal of King Gustavus V of Sweden for Life Saving, awarded after Taprell Dorling's ship, HMS Telemachus, had rescued a number of Swedish sailors whose vessel had been torpedoed in 1917. It is the last medal in his group."

Unquote

So, as He saved sailors at sea, I desumed that this medal was awarded 'For Saving life at SEA'.

Other factors important to correctly identify what Dorling received, at least in my mind, are :

- the fact that the medal was a 'Gustav V' type;

- the particular suspension that this medal has;

- the fact that it was awarded in 1917.

Excluding the award of the "Medal for Bravery and Resource at Sea in Times of Danger", because it was instituted in 1941, the only option that remain is the "Sui Memores" medal, with :

"Gustavus V Svec Goth Vand Rex" on the obverse;

"Sui Memores Alios Fecere Merendo" on the reverse.

Moreover what arise my confusion is the fact that the medal you posted in your post #2 is completely different (see for example the different type of the suspension) in respect to that awarded to T. Dorling.

To conclude this discussion, Am I correct in considering that the medal awarded to T. Dorling was in appearance identical to the one of the colour photo I posted in my post #3 but containing, instead, the following inscriptions :

obverse :"Gustavus V Svec Goth Vand Rex";

reverse : "Sui Memores Alios Fecere Merendo".

If your answer is yes (please let me know) all the confusion has disappeared !

Best Regards

Lilo

So unless you dig up more info my money is still on the "Sui Memores" medal.

/Mike

Hi Mike,

I'm a little confused !

Stating what above quoted, do you confirm that what I have stated in post #8 is correct ?

Lilo

Please see a better photo (also if it is in B/W) where the suspension is better visible (the medal is that indicated by the red arrow).

Hi Mike,

Many thanks.

Let me start from where all the matter came from.

I read that the famous Capt Taprell Dorling (the writer of the book on ribbons and medals) was a British recipient of the so called : Sweden, Medal for Life saving at sea (King Gustavus V), Gold Medal, awarded to him in 1917.

Am I correct that He received the Exact medal whose photo I posted but with the Latin text "Sui Memores Alios Fecere Merendo" on the back ?

Please see photo below of the real medal bar of Capt Taprell Dorling. The medal in question is the last one on the rack (please note the particular suspension).

Lilo

Hi Mike,

If I have well understood the medal of which I posted the photo should be the correct one for the 'Life Saving' if it should have the "Sui Memores Alios Fecere Merendo" ("F?r Ber?mliga G?rningar") iscription on the back ?

In other words it is identical but with different inscription ?

Lilo

Hi Mike,

Can it be this the medal I'm looking for ?

See attachment below

Dear All,

Please, can anyone post a clear photo of front, back and ribbon for the following medal : Sweden, Medal for Life saving (King Gustavus V), Gold Medal ?

Please, it should be for Life Saving (Gustav V type - and in Gold).

Many Thanks in advance

Lilo

Hi All,

researching the medal entitlement of the British Field Marshal Philip Walhouse (Chetwode), 1st Baron Chetwode, (1869-1950), I discovered that He was awarded the :

China, Order of the Brilliant Star, Grand Cordon.

This Order was gazetted (i.e. put on the London Gazette) on 5th MARCH, 1948.

I have further researched this Order to try to understand the exact type awarded to Chetwode and which is/are the exact colour/s of the ribbon but I have found anything.

Can anyone please supply with a colour photo with the exact version that Chetwode should have received and showing also the colour/s of the ribbon ?

Many Thanks in advance

Best Regards

Lilo

At Kings' College there are not only his diary with his papers !

If I have well read this entry :

'''Unpublished account by Macleod entitled 'A secret service agent in South-West Africa: Ironside's story as told to me and from notes he left behind', detailing the service of FM (William) Edmund Ironside, 1st Baron of Archangel and Ironside, as a British agent in South Africa, German South West Africa and British Bechuanaland, 1902-1904, including the search for outlaw Boers north of the Orange River, 1902-1903, the Bondelzwart and Hereros Rising in German South West Africa, 1903-1904, Ironside's covert conscription into the German army disguised as a Boer transport driver, 1904. 1 vol.''''

(http://www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/cats/macleod/ma32-01-.htm)

??it contain the Unpublished account by Macleod entitled 'A secret service agent in South-West Africa: Ironside's story as told to me and from notes he left behind'

As this account can clear all the matter, I have already sent an email to the Kings' College (finally I found it).

Now we will wait till their answer !

Lilo

Hi All,

I have contacted Mr. McGregor (the author of the book previously mentioned on this post) and following is the prompt and kind answer I received :

"""""""""""""Dear Mr. Lilo,

Thanks for the email. After doing a lot of research into German Colonial medals specifically German South West Africa I cannot believe that the Germans would award one of their medals to a foreigner and even less if he was in the transport section run by the Boers and which was not an integral part of the Schutztruppe!

During my research into the awarding of the Kalahari 1907 bar and medal I came across many letters written by senior German Colonial Administrators stating that the awarding of German Medals to foreigners degraded the German medal system and thus they would not recommend any awards to foreigners. The awarding of the Kalahari 1907 bar and medal was done when the Kaiser while on an official state visit to Great Britain and only occurred because the Kaiser and the King of Great Britain knew each other very well and the matter was discussed privately. The Kalahari awards would NEVER have taken place if it had to come from Windhoek. The Kaiser wanted to smooth relations between Germany and Great Britain as they were in an Battle Ship race against each other. Read my book ?German Medals, British Soldiers and the Kalahari Desert? in which there is a whole chapter on why the medal was awarded to the British soldiers.

Now, based on my knowledge gained through reading many German files in the archives and having an insight into the methodology of the German Colonial Officials I do not believe that they would award the AEZ to a lowly Boer wagon driver not even in the Schutztruppe but providing a transport service to them.

Regards,

Gordon McGregor

Windhoek

Namibia""""""""""""""

I think the above can be of some interest as a follow up of the discussion.

All the Best

Lilo

..............................I suspect Ironside received either the AEZ or the merit medal on black/white ribbon. His career is VERY well established and so is this story.

.........................................Write to King's College in London and they'll give you the details. They are VERY helpful. Heck, they might even have his original award certificate.

Hi Ulsterman,

I apologise for the stupid questions but having a quite scarce (if any) knowledge on German medals may I ask you what are the 'AEZ' and the 'Merit Medal on black/white ribbon' you are refferring to ?

(a link to see how these two medals look like should be very appreciated).

I have tried to find a correct email address to try to contact the King`s College London but I'm not convinced of what I have found. Can you, please, supply it ?

Again Many Thanks to All for this great discussion

All the Best

Lilo

This may help, but totally wrong (EK?!!?!?!?)

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:27 pm

Author: Poppy_Travel

Don't forget General William Edmund Ironside.

IRONSIDE, William Edmund (1880-1959), 1st Baron Ironside of Archangel and Ironside, Field Marshal

Service biography

Joined Royal Artillery 1899; South African War 1899-1902; transport section, German Army, Bondelzwarts War, South West Africa 1904; Staff Captain, South Africa 1908-1909; World War I 1914-1918; General Staff Officer Grade 3 1914; General Staff Officer Grade 2 1915; General Staff Officer Grade 1 1916; Commander, 99 Infantry Bde 1918; Commander-in-Chief, Allied Troops, Archangel, North Russia 1918-1920; Ismid Force 1920; North Persian Force 1921; Commandant, Staff College, Camberley 1922-1926; Commander, 2 Div, Aldershot 1926-1928; Commander, Meerut District, India 1928-1931; Lieutenant of Tower of London 1931-1933; Quartermaster General, India 1933-1936; General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Command 1936-1938; Governor and Commander-in-Chief, Gibraltar 1938-1939; World War II 1939-1940; Inspector General of Forces 1939; Chief of the Imperial General Staff 1939-1940; Commander-in-Chief, Home Forces 1940; Col Commandant Royal Artillery 1932-1946

He was awarded the Iron Cross in SW Africa for the work he carried out while spying on the Germans disguised as a Boer transport manager.

Hi Chris,

Can you please post the link from which you have taken the source above mentioned ?

Moreover it is not clear to me if you think/believe that Ironside received the Iron Cross or Not.

Last, I have not well understood from which source you have taken the above career; can you please let me know ?

Regards

Lilo

Hi Chris / 922F

Many tank for the comments and the Help.

922F,

I have the book previously mentioned by you and can confirm that you are right when you say that Ironside didn't received the German SWA medal with any of the Kalahari clasps and this because this medal was awarded to British troops as such. Ironside, for what we can desume, was in an undercorver secret service and as he joined as a Boer, in any case if He should had received a medal, it was with his Boer identity and NOT the British.

I'll try to contact Mr. Gordon McGregor to see if He can solve this mystery.

Chris,

You have stated :

I have never read that Boers helping the Schutztruppe qualified for medals, and they did not JOIN the German army. Many Boers lived in German South West Afrika and rode transport routes for the Germans, or even fought alongside the Germans, but not as official German soldiers.

However, FYI, I put an abstract of page 11 of the book previously mentioned from which it is clear that the Boers did received medals from the Germans (see the attachments below):

All the Best

Lilo

Hi Rick, Arthur

Many thanks.

Rick, at the light of what Arthur have discovered/supposed what do you think Ironside did received ?

Please Let me know

All the Best

Lilo

Hello,

I have read at : http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,894297,00.html

'Lord Ironside could speak 16 languages, once posed for two years (1900-02) as a Boer in the German army in Southeast Africa, so impressed his Prussian superiors that the young spy was awarded the German Military Service Medal.'

[Time Monday, Oct. 05, 1959]

As I'm trying to establish the complete medal entitlement of British Field Marshal William Edmund IRONSIDE, 1st Baron Ironside (1880-1959) , can anyone help me what exactly is this German Military Service Medal ?

In other words I would like to correctly identify the 'German medal' awarded to this British recipient

I think that not too many British received German medals so may be a simple task ???

Many Thanks in advance

All the Best

Lilo

Hi Noor,

Many Thanks for the replay.

I seems to remember that many Russian medals are suspended from ribbons that are used for the various Russian Orders.

Below I have attached 2 british groups at the end of which it is attached the same Russian medal : the Medal of Zeal.

As you can see, although we are in presence of the same medal (Zeal) it is suspended from two different ribbons : St. Anne and St. Stanislaus.

Returning to your German ribbon bar, I believe that we are in presence of this combination : Prussia Order of the Crown (??), Prussia Red Eagle, Russia Order of St. Stanislaus, Russia Order of St. Anne ....+ some medal (possibly that for ZEAL ??) suspended from the St. Stanislaus ribbon.

I consider that the last ribbon is, with almost certainty, for a medal considering also the 'order of precedence' in which the medals usually occupy the last post in respect of the Orders (at least in the British system).

To conclude my comment, I think, in other words, that the 2 St. Stanislaus ribbons in your ribbon bar represent The Order and a medal instead of the two different Divisions (Military and Civil) of the Order of St. Stanislaus.

All the Best

Lilo

Hi George,

Again Many Thanks !

Regards

Lilo

I dont recall seeing a russian officer wearing both with and without swords of the same class at the same time.

Hi George,

Many thanks for your prompt answer !

Judging from your above statement it seems to me reliable that it is NOT possible that a foreigner (a British in this case) could wear Two ribbons of the same Order (St. Stanislas) although they represents different Divisions (Military and Civil).

Isn't it ?

Regards

Lilo

Hello All,

I would like to know if is it possible that a person could - in different times - receive the Order of St. Stanislas WITH and WITHOUT swords.

If yes (as I believe but would like it confirmed by an expert), can He wear 2 times the same (St. Stanislas) ribbon on his ribbon bar ??

I'm asking this because apparently a british General received both (With and Without swords) versions of the Order of St. Stanislas and I was wondering if He worn 2 St. Stanislas ribbons on his ribbon bar.

Many thanks in advance for the help

Best Regards

Lilo

"Coraggio fuggiamo" .... and the Bersaglieri would do it at a trot!

What do you want to mean with this affirmation ? May be that the Bersaglieri are a group of Cowards ??

Let me know so that I can propely answer your st...d comment !

Gentlemen,

.......................................Yes, the border of the center medallion is black, not blue.

Indeed it is Dark Blue NOT black.

Lilo

Lilo,

A belated thanks for this image. The image looks a litte "weak" - is it a composite image of a ribbon added to another independence medal obverse?

Thanks,

Owain

Dear Owain,

It is the photo representing the Original medal suspended from the original ribbon.

I don't remember from where I took the photo (I think from Spink but I'm not sure) and it is so little because the photo from which I took this medal contained 5 more independence medals.

I cannot attach this to the forum because it is about 126 KB.

Best Regards

Lilo

Hi Owain,

Many thanks for the clarification.

Lilo

Lilo,

Both inscriptions are the same "Al Hussain Bin Ali" - I have seen a number of variations in the script and these appear to be design variants by the manufacturers - Bertrand, Bichay, Garrard, Huguenin, London Gold and Silversmiths Coy., etc. From my experience the design of this particular order remains constant from its inception in the Hijaz through Transjordan to Jordan. I know that the very early pieces manufactured locally have paint rather than enamel and some years ago I saw the 1st Class presented by King Hussain of the Hijaz to the Sultan of Lahej after the Great War - this also had a heavy weave sash. What is difficult to identify is when the Order of the Renaissance design changed from 1st type to 2nd type - 1925 when Hijaz fell or later when Transjordan became the Kingdom of Jordan or indeed any date in betweeen!

Owain

Hi Owain,

OK, I have understood that 'both inscriptions are the same'.

That that is NOT still clear to me, are the differences between the 1st and the 2nd type of this Order. Can you mention some of them ?

Lilo