lilo

Dear Owain,

From the brief information I collected from various medal catalogs, till now I was convinced that we can find two different monograms/ciphers in the center of the Order of Independence (Wisam al-Istiqlal). From this I deduced that we have 2 different types of this Order :

- The 1st type (1921 - 51) has the monogram/cipher of Hussein Ibn-Abdullah (known also as King Abdullah I whose reign was from 7^th April 1921 to 20^th July 1951). -see first photo below-

- The 2nd type (1951 - 52) has the monogram/cipher of Hussein Ibn-Tala (known also as King Talal I whose reign was from 20^th July 1951 to 11th Aug 1952). -see second photo below-

Really I don't know the 'arab' so I can be completely wrong on what I stated above. If so I please you to correct me telling in what is the difference between the two types and what the two different monograms/ciphers mean.

On the contrary, if I'm correct, I think to not be wrong in stating that General Jafaar received the

1^st type of the Order in question, considering the He was murdered in 1936 : isn't it ??

Awaiting to hear from you

All the Best

Lilo

Hi Owain,

Well done !

To recapitulate General Jafaar full medal entitlement should be :

1. UK, Royal Victorian Order (GCVO), breast star, sash & sash badge;

2. UK, Order of St. Michael & St. George (CMG), neck badge;

3. Iraq, Order of Two Rivers, Military Division, breast badge + breast star;

4. Hijaz, Order of Independence, breast badge + breast star;

5. Hijaz, Order Renaissance, breast star;

6. Active Service Medal (Iraq)with clasp - probably "Southern Kurdistan";

7. Hijaz, Ma'an Medal;

8. Hijaz, Independence Medal;

9. UK, WW1 BWM;

10. UK, Victory Medal + MID Emblem;

11. Turkey, Liakat Medal;

12. Turkey, Ottoman War Medal (known also as Gallipoli Star);

13. German, Iron Cross, 1st class.

Owain, please, can you confirm that Gen. Jafaar received the :

- 1st type [Reign 1921-51] with ?Abdullah I? chypher of the Order of El Istiqlal (Independence) ?

- 1st type (i.e. Kingdom of the Hijaz) of the Order of Al Nahada ?

- That the Order of Al Nahada was suspended from the 1st type of ribbon (?green? inward)?

Many thanks again

All the Best

Lilo

Hi Rick,

Many thanks for the very informative replay you have given to my question.

Owain - with his above answer - should have also solved the question about Jafaar other turkish awards before WW1 :

it appears from the photographic evidence that He received only the Order of Mejide 5th Class.

lilo

Lilo,

My comments are just assumption - I don't know the regulations for the award of the star - hoewever I feel it to be highly unlikley that he either received it or was entitled to it. In his autobiography I do not recall any mention being made of this award. You could infer that he was happy to wear the Liakat as the campaign for which it was awarded was not aganist the Allied Fiorces but the Senoussi in what is now Lybia.

Owain

Hi Owain

Many thanks for all the informations.

All the Best

Lilo

I would suspect that he never received the star nor in light of his services with the Hijaz military that he felt entitled to it.

Owain

Hi Owain,

Have I well understood what you have above stated ?

In other words you think that General Jafaar - although He (Jafaar) had thought to be entitled because his services with the Hijaz military - really didn't received the Gallipoli Star : isn't it ?

All the Best

Lilo

He should also have had the Ottoman War Medal star, worn on the lower right abdomen, which is not being worn.

I am amazed that

1) he wore the Liakat at all, and

2) he had NOTHING higher.

For an Ottoman general, that was excessively lackluster by the time he went over to the other side in 1917.

Hello Rick,

He indeed wore the Liakat medal !

Can you let me know from what you deduce that He should wore the 'GALLIPOLI STAR' ??

As in the above photo He wears all his medals, Why He should not wear also the Gallipoli Star if He was entitled to it ?

Regards

Lilo

Hi All,

Many thanks for the replays, very much appreciated !

Owain,

I'm just curious to know the source from which you have taken the (FULL ??) medal entitlement of General Jafaar or must I consider it as a fruit of your guess basing (in part) on the ribbons he wears ??

Moreover, can you please :

1) confirm if the O. of Two Rivers (Iraq) was of Military Division ?

2) explain from what do you think that He probably received the "Southern Kurdistan" clasp on his Active Service Medal (Iraq) and not some more clasps or even one different from that you mention ?

Is it possible to ascertain which between the Imtiaz or Liakat Medals (Turkey), did he received ?

Again

Many thanks to All

All the Best

Lilo

P.S. Do you have other photos of General Jafaar in uniform ? If yes please post them here.

Hi All,

Googling in the web, I discovered the photo below attached that was labeled : 'General Jafaar Pasha from Bagdad'.

I think that He was part of the Iraq Army in the 1920's.

What is His biography ?

Which are the Medals/Orders to which He was entitled ?

Regards

Lilo

In the LG we can see many another montenegrin awards,

but Obilich Medal - only once and

BEFORE DANILO ORDER 1st class !

Hi all,

Another recipient of the Montenegro Obilitch Medal (Gold) was :

General Henry Seymour RAWLINSON (1864-1925), GCB, GCSI, GCVO, KCMG, KStJ

Vide:

3826 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 21 APRIL, 1917

Ed,

The museum has some very interesting items,including a type of uniform worn by General Gordon and various weapons used by the Mahdi army.If there is interest,I can post more photgraphs as a seperate topic.

Hello Sabrigade,

Have you visited the museum ?

I'm still very interested in seeing what it (the museum) contains including the uniform worn by General Gordon so, please post all the photos you have.

Regards

Lilo

No. none of the medals were displayed. Only the orders, and even these were incomplete.

Hi Dave

how do you know that the Orders of the Duke Alfred of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (2nd son of Queen Victoria) on show at the museum are incomplete ?

Do you know which are the Orders of the Duke Alfred of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha that are missing from the display ?

Have you a complete list of His Orders entitlement ?

I'm asking this because I'm very interested on this matter : I'm trying to re-search what is His (of the Duke Alfred) Full Medal/Order entitlement.

Awaiting to hear from you

Regards

Lilo

Hi Paul

Thank you.

Howevere, I was thinking that for the uncommon combination of awards some guess could be done but for what I can see, this cannot be done.

Regards

Lilo

Hi Ed

Again thank you.

Regards

Lilo

Hi Ed

Many Thanks for your guess

Regards

Lilo

Hello Dave,

Many thanks for the spendid photos you have posted and for sharing them with us.

I think that the Duke Alfred of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (2nd son of Queen Victoria) received also some 'medals' that are not represented in your splendid photos : are these 'medals' present in the museum you visited or Not ??

Awaiting to hear from you

All the Best

Lilo

Hi Owain Raw-Rees

Although very little, following is a photo of the medal you require

All the Best

Lilo

Hello All,

I have the following medal group (I bought directly from Japan):

1) 6th class Rising sun;

2) 5th class Sacred Treasure;

3) Boxer rebellion medal, Meiji 33;

4) Russo-Japanese War medal (MEIJI era);

5)Taisho era medal (1913-1914);

6)Taisho era victory medal;

7) Japanese Taisho era medal ?BANZAI?;

8) Red cross medal.

According the number of the medals in this group and the particular (rare) combo of awards I wonder if it could be attributable or at least if it was awarded to an Army or Naval Officer.

Awaiting any input

Best Regards

Lilo

Quote

Hello Everyone,

I would think these would be easy to copy as they are cast. Has there been a lot of copying of these medals done? I haven't actually seen any but then again I have not been looking.

Cheers

Brian

Unquote

Brian,

If you refer your question to the two examples in my collection, all that I can tell you is that :

'Both the examples came from two private collections where the two Stars resided for many years before being sold. Both where guaranteed 100% original.'

As our member Sabrigade already stated, I never have seen them in quantity on the market. If we consider also the poor manufacture of the medal and that the rise in prices of these Stars was only in recent times, I retain (it is only a personal belief) that there was no large benefit in copying this Stars. I also retain that till recent times there wasn't much request for these Stars so no reason to copy them.

So if you want to look for a 'copy' let us know who sell them and what they looks like.

Eddie,

Payne reported that the stars were issued 'numbered' but for what I can see from mine and the descriptions of those that were on the market in the last 10 years (about 12 or 13 Stars), there is no Number in any of them.

Sabrigade,

For what regards the exact colour of the ribbon (according the little research I made) I think that it is definitively 'Red'.

As an aside and a propos of the 'paper-money' issued by Gordon during the siege, see an example below, whose description is :

'A banknote from British Sudan, issued by the famous General Charles Gordon to pay his troops during the siege of 1885. Supposedly about 3000 of these notes were smuggled out of the Sudan after the siege and rape of the capital city of Khartoum.'

Best Regards

Lilo

the back of the Gordon stars I have

Ed,

The museum has some very interesting items,including a type of uniform worn by General Gordon and various weapons used by the Mahdi army.If there is interest,I can post more photgraphs as a seperate topic.

Hello All,

The two below are in my collection (both in pewter and with convex back).

Sabrigade,

I'm also very interested in seeing what the museum contains including the uniform worn by General Gordon so, please post all the photos you have.

Regards

Lilo

Hi All

the following 3 are in my collection

Regards

Lilo

Hello,

Speedytop gave all the further answers you were waiting from me...

Nice to see so many people interested in the A-H Orders & Decorations!

Best wishes,

Enzo

Many thanks for your interest and help Enzo.

All the Best

Lilo

Hello Uwe

No problem at all for your english : I have understood perfectly what you mean !

All the Best

Lilo

I also sent you a PM

Hi All,

I'm searching the FULL medal entitlement of an eminent Austrian person : Sir Rudolf Anton Carl von Slatin (1857-1932).

Any idea of the awards he received expecially from 1900 up to the end of WW1 (He received many 'foreign' awards) ?

During WW1 he was president of the prisoners-of-war section of the AUSTRIAN RED CROSS : was for this rewarded with some Order / Decoration ??

Many Thanks

All the Best

Lilo

Hello again,

I was kindly informed that between the Orders awarded to Slatin there are the following :

1) Gro?komturkreuz des gro?herzoglich Mecklenburgischen Greifen-Ordens;

2) Kommandeurkreuz des k?niglich preu?ischen Kronen-Ordens;

3) Komturkreuz des herzoglichen Sachsen-Weimar-Ordens vom Wei?en Falken;

4) Italien Komturkreuz des k?niglichen Mauritius- und Lazarus-Ordens verliehen;

5) T?rkei Gro?offizierskreuz des Medjidi-Orden;

6) T?rkei Kommandeurkreuz des Osmanje-Orden erhalten;

7) Comthurkreuz (Komturkreuzes) Franz Josephs-Ordens mit dem Stern;

8) ?sterreichischerseits besa? er sonst nur die Kriegsmedaille und die Jubil?ums-Erinnerungsmedaille von 1898.

Unfortunately I don't know a single word of German language so please, can someone translate in English the above list having care to specify the exact CLASS and the Order awarded ??

Thanks again very much

All the best

Lilo