Peter BL

Congrats Justin...that's a great collection you're putting together.

If you're looking for S-Boot citations, I've got a nice, rare Kurland doc to an S-Boot man.

Very best...Peter

These shields as everyone can agree, contain tons of controversy. To me, I believe that these if they are period pieces are much like the WW1 trench art, or the over-sized constructed KC for U-boat crews. They are of course, quite desirable. It would be interesting to see if there was a test to see when the metal was formed. Sort of like a C.S.I Militaria deal.

In today's world of fakes and forgeries, I am always and will always remain skeptical until, some other proof can be obtained.

Both Michael and Peter's examples shared do look convincing though...

Regards,

2dresq

Hi Justin..I agree these pieces are and always will be controversial but only because so few were made and so little is documented,for me, seeing Michel's grouping nails the existence and originality of this award (and mine in particular).

Best...Peter

Well that grouping's incredible Michel...sorry to use your citation, it's been on my database for so long I'd forgotten where I'd copied it from.

And thanks for all the comments...an interesting thread:beer:

Very best...Peter

Hi Pete,

Interesting thread and you have had some good comments regarding the shield from guys with far more knowledge than I but to me it is not a period piece. I know that carries no weight whatsoever but I put these items in the same category as Balloon Observers, Luftwaffe tank badges and yes the Lorient shield. According to what I have read all these very late war items have listings in soldbuchs and even an award document (although I personally have never seen such an award document) but no one can show hard evidence (photo) of any soldier wearing one. Maybe this is archaic in my opinions but too many fantasy pieces getting around in this hobby. But its like Frank Huekemes once said..if you like it and think its genuine then everyone else can get F@#ked.

If it is indeed genuine (and I cant see how you will ever prove it 100%) then what a great addition to your collection. Sorry to be sceptical but mate I dont really believe all these sniper patches are genuine either.

All the best

Phil

Hi Phil...that's ok, everyone's entitled to there opinion. All I'd say is this award/tradition badge, although rare is well documented with soldbuch entries and award citations. In fact these semi official/Unofficial awards/tradition badges were more common than you'd think..there just not well documented.

Best...Peter

Never thought I'd see an original Prinz Eugen...nice one Justin:cheers:

KR..Peter

Reverse

Have wanted to own one of these for a while now and this one dropped through the letterbox today....well not literally

It's stamped 'Kriegsmarine N 3806' on the back

KR..Peter

Hi Tom...I'd definitely like to see your example and compare them.

KR...Peter

That's a nice sub badge Morten....

Best..Peter

A new addition to the Fleet...cheers for the heads-up Justin.

KR...Peter

Another Narvik in CupAl...notice this one doesn't have the 'Double Strike' commonly seen the these KM's

KR...Peter

Hi Tim....thanks for posting those comparisons but what I don't understand and find a bit strange is how these shields are identical (allowing for the severe die wear) in every way apart from the date numerals.

Peter

There you go Phil...Zinc shield/double clothed....E-mail me if you like it.

Peter

Nice shield for sure but no way the cloth and paper are period to the shield. Where does this one come from.

Phil, I do have a KM Shield if you're looking for one. I'll post it up later.

Peter

Sorry about that...slightly but any chance I get...

I'll start a thread on Unknown krims and you can post up that Maedicke..

Best...Peter

Yep, I'd agree with all of that. Well put Tim. In fact the State stopped the use of Brass (Tombak/Cupal) in awards in 1942. Manufacturers were only permitted to use this metal on pins assemblies.

And of course you're probably right Phil...firms would have used the stock available at the time for the prong attachment.

But I have to disagree...I think the Buntmetal LW Narvik is a work of art.....

:love:

Peter

Hi Peter!

I assume the comment is general in nature and not specifically directed to this "type" Krim in this thread? If so, then..

Yes, entirely possible. I don't know the average life expectancy of a die that produces these type stampings but, remember that the Krim shield was initially authorized in July 1942 and the end date for awards in October 1943, though most probably were awarded by April '43. Most soldiers probably received a minumium of three shields for their uniforms and of course, there had to be some kind of after-market for replacements.

Now, considering all the different manufacturers that had license to manufacture these Krim shields (including all those different "unknown maker" varieties), would any one manufacturer need a long-term view of this one award with inclusive dates, and more than one die to fill that supply? ... Apparently, in the case of Deumer, Wurster, and to a lessor degree, Orth, it would appear those guys did.

Now, would any of those manufacturers have put more than one die into operation at any gven time, I don't know, but it kind of seems unlikely to me as it would all be demand driven, again depending on life expectancy of the die IMHO.

Best,

Tim

Hi Tim...that's my point. If, say Deumer was contracted for 100-200 thousand pieces, wouldn't it make economic sense to cut 2 (or more) die's at the same time.

Looking at the 'Missing Log' Demjansk, the die could well have started to break down after 50 thousand shield's (that's a guess) resulting in the flaws we see.

KR..Peter

Hi Tim...

Just out of interest, why do we all assume a second type from the same maker was/is a later shield. For instance...1 Million Krim shield's were awarded so at least that many were produced...probably close to 1.5 Million. So once the contracts were awarded, wouldn't a company like Deumer/Wurster/Orth make and run two or more die stamps at the same time...hence that's maybe why the designs are so close to each other.

Best...Peter

I think Dion nicknamed this one the T-Rex...never understood why. Not one of my favourites but I don't doubt it's originality.

KR...Peter

Hi Tim...I agree, certainly a weak stamping, although I did show it to Pascal who considers it original.

I meant to say regarding the new Krim book. worth buying but I wouldn't call it a 'complete work' on the Krim shield. It certainly misses a few makers out. In fact, I'm sure the 3 Deumers Sacha shows in his book are all from the same Die stamp (the flaw looks to be there in all the pics).

Here's a sample page...Peter

...

Nice collections of Krims Andrei...

What do you guy's think of this one.

Peter

Hi guys,

Well spotted Phil! Coastline is definately sharp in the cuts and have extra details that I normally do not see on authentic Deumers. I was also suspicious with the pin sockets on the reverse. What's the thoughts here, a Deumer copy? No die flaw either!!

Tim

Definitely a Deumer copy Tim...the details are almost exaggerated compared to the original.

Peter

Peter that close up of the bare shield whilst it has a lot of Duemer characteristics is in my opinion different. What do you think or am I just seeing things here.

Phil

Hi Phil....Well, I posted the shield without taking much of a look at it. It's certainly not an original shield let alone a Deumer.

Well spotted..I'm just flogging myself as we speak....

Best...Peter

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