Peter BL

A few more...A Lovely Deumer BTW:cheers:

Posting these for Andrei..

So, if I read your comments correctly, do you also think the two versions of Deumer shields are those like the ones shown in posts 1-9 and the 2nd version in posts 10-14?

HI Tim....yes, that's how I see it...in fact I don't see the type 2 in either of Sacha's krim books ....so, how about this summary

Type 1 (posts 1-9) Zinc Bronzed/Plain

Sheet Metal (Magnetic) Bronzed

Type 2 (posts 10-14) Zinc Bronzed/Plain

I've had a little more time to sit down and study Weber's reference shields again and I must say that I find very little difference between the shields shown on pages 26 & 28 other than the attachment pins. There might be some minor wear difference in the head area, but it's minor and could be attributed to worn/dirty dies or maybe even a shift in striking during the manufacturing process. The other details are the same in my opinion.

With that; I think I need to change my write-up earlier and say now that all the shields posted in posts 1-8 are the same. In post #9, I think this is just another case of more wear on the die in the head area and Weber does not show one with this level of wear as previously thought. Again, I think it is the same shield as the two shown on pages 26/28, just not to the same wear level.

That still leaves the flat-head and any timelines that can be deduced.

Tim

After having a closer look at the shield's posted and the examples Sacha show's I tend to agree Tim, I think these are all from the same die stamp, predominantly in zinc but certainly stamped in sheet metal as well. And in the case of the Zinc shield..bronzed or left plain Zinc.

Again the type shown in posts 10 & 14 (i assume both Zinc) are IMO identical both bronzed/Plain

So are we left with 2 types of Deumer shield,with both dies capable of stamping thousands of shields before the dies themselves started to degrade.

Impossible to date the prongs, but bear in mind the Deumer Narvik shield I believe used flat prongs in 1940.....so the wire could indeed be a later type.

Best...Peter

And here's the proof...

Hi Tim...great discussion. The shield on the left is magnetic sheet metal. Now, I've measured both shield's using digital calipers and both shields come out at 61.95mm X 43.90 (on the shield below the wings). Which can only suggest both shield's were produced from the same Die stamp.

What would confirm this would be finding a die flaw on both shield's....

Peter

My latest buy....the type I believe the common Zinc fake is based on.

Peter

Scanned using the Canoscan 8800f

Phil, that JFS is damn near mint. Look at the burnishing still present.

Both very nice shields...

KR...Peter

Hi Fernando...It was a bit of a sweat. I won't put a bid in until the last 20 seconds of the auction (and pray the broadband can keep up). I think my highest was 150eur on the Scheer.

Peter

i hope so another scheer peter...soryy for my english but i understnd yo won this scheer tally on ebay germany,isn,t it?

congratulation to you and HAPPY NEW YEAR FROM SPAIN TO YOU AN FAMILY

fernando

Hi Fernando..Yes it was me..couldn't pass on this one.

Happy New year to you..Peter

Hi Fernando...sorry mate the was me:whistle:...Tally as above. I'm sure another will come along soon.

Happy New Year to all..Peter

Another edition to the Tally collection and one I've been looking for a while now...

KR..Peter

No Peter,

Actually, I love that shield and was hoping you might fall "victim" to my request!

Actually, I would count on that one being more 100% completely original than the JFS that I have with Panzer backing. The back cloth on mine sure looks original and there are spots where the cloth and shield appear to have been together for quite sometime, the backing is however, not what I would expect to see on a JFS shield.

I would rarely question your items based on past experience with you and your pieces.

Tim

Hi Tim...well, I'm always open to a trade and would have no problem letting this one go to a fellow shield collector.

Peter

Below a good Panzer backed Krim(IMO).

I don't know about that shield Peter; I think you should send it to me for "closer inspection"

Tim

I knew I was gonna get some Flak for that statement......always worth a try though:P

KR..Peter

Phil, don't worry about it. We've all been there and learnt from others. Nice to hear you're concentrating on shield's and I'm sure like myself, Tim would always help with advice. I wouldn't get to hung up on the 'hard to get' backing cloths...most are contentious IMO... certainly from where you got your Panzer backed Krim from, just to many mint/hard to find shields for my liking.

I agree with Tim on the Narvik...a well known copy often referred to as the small '4' (a fake that I got caught out on when I first started). There's an excellent thread on the Narvik shield on this forum which is well worth a look at.

Apart from that you've got some nice shield's and the Demjansk is a beauty....I collect the docs as well but mainly try and concentrate on the shield's but always on the lookout for award docs especially Narvik docs.

Below a good Panzer backed Krim(IMO).

all the best...Peter

Phil, as Tim has said, no feathers ruffled here either.

Thanks for posting the shield's...I hate to say it but the panzer backed shield top left looks like a Floch copy and the shield bottom right although original, looks to have post war cloth and backing paper.

The other two are good originals in every way.

Best....Peter

Guys,

we are not a forum where mentioning another forums name is taboo.

Like anywhere else, blatant member fishing is seen as rude, but GMIC has a live and let live policy when it comes to other forums.

Best

Chris

Well said Chris....I use all the major forums in equal measure and tend to rate them all.

Phil, how about posting those shield's up. Would like to see the KM and Panzer backed shield especially.

KR and Happy Xmas to all.......Peter:beer:

Nice collection of Krims Tim:cheers:....here's my newest edition, still priced up at 1.60 RM

All the best...Peter

Just seen this one.....Only one pic and 93cm long. Does it stand a chance?

http://cgi.ebay.de/Muetzenband-Kriegsmarine-Schlachtschiff-Gneisenau-WWII_W0QQitemZ180439521773QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitaria?hash=item2a030899ed

Peter

Close-up

Hi Paul....Justin's got an amazing collection of these (and I'm after his Gneisenau )....I doubt you'd ever find an original Prinz Eugen and the Bismarck's non-existent. At that point only "Kriegsmarine" tally's were worn.

Here's one I picked up a few days ago along with the postcard...any opinions appreciated.

KR...Peter

Hi Peter....Nice example to show the difference between the two types....

Peter

Just to make sure I understand, is the photo you marked with the red arrows a photo of a reproduction and it's that tiny gap that distinguishes it? The original in the next post is a much smaller view but I take it there's no gap there, correct? (Just wasn't sure I was seeing it.)

What about the fact that in your original the areas between the eagle's head and the shoulders of the wings is not cut out whereas it is in the first two pictured shields? Is that significant or does that vary with manufacturer?

Best regards,

---Norm

Hi Norm...yes you're right the scan with the red arrows highlight's what's wrong with this shield and yes, the wreath should sit firmly at the bottom of the crossbar. Deumer produced 2 types, this one's the later version with the 'filled in' shoulders.

Check this thread out..

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17606&hl=Narvik&st=20

KR...Peter

Here's an original to compare