James Hoard

My dear poor Mr. Hoard,

You are very European people to comprehend what Albania was. The Prime minister of Wied, Turhan pascia Permeti, spoke in French with the Prince, in Turkish with his ministers and the Albanians, in Persian with his staff and in Italian or French with the diplomatic corp. Generally the cultured Albanians of that period, spoke between us in French or in Turkish.

You use a very sounding title of "Marshal of the Court", but you forgot that this person was a simple Turkish-Albanian bey.

I agree with you, for the lisle of Klietmann. No, he does include in his list Heaton-Armstrong, but include the secretary of Khedive of Egypt for Grand Officer Class.

King Zog for his Orders of Besa and Skanderbeg, don't use the word "Grand Cross" but "Grand Star" (Yll i Madh). However I think that to the Prince was not presented the problem of the word "cross", because he had much more serious problems during his troublous days in Durr?s and because only two Albanians received the class of Grand Cross (both of them Muslims).

Dear Artan,

This "simple" Albanian Bey communicated with other Albanians in French!

As for the title "Grand Cross". Yes, Wilhlem had other things on his mind after her got to Albania but for all of his time before he got there he spent on designing orders and uniforms. Heaton-Armstrong complains about him wasting time on these matters. If one looks at the design of the Black Eagle clearly an good deal of thought went into making sure it was not based on a cross.

By the way, what are the Albanian terms for the other grades?

With all good wishes

James

Dear Artan

I think it is safe to say that Klietmann is not completely accurate.

Does he include Heaton-Armstrong or the Khedive of Egypt in his lists?

I have a few other doubts about information about the BE Order in general. For example, was the first class of the Order really called Grand "Cross", when most of the Albanian people were Muslim and the use of such a term would have caused offence? Clearly, trouble was taken over the design so that none of the insignia were based on a cross.

James

To my understanding, there is no record of any Wied Albanian military merit medal heretofore.

Precisely why it is of such interest and needs proper and further investigation.

Court Marshals are usually sticklers for protocol and indeed the arbiters of these matters. They are unlikely to be calling awards by totally different names just for the hell of it or through a fit of absentmindedness. Hard to fathom how a Medal of the Order of the Black Eagle could be called something else by such a person.

My observation about the use of French was the appointment was to an Albanian from the Albanian speaking Marshal of the Court. One can imagine a French language document to a foreigner, but a little odd in this particular case.

James

Cheers,

James

Dear Artan

Thank you for the dated scans.

I think an explanation isn't too difficult to come up with.

The June and July documents conform to the historical narrative.

The odd document is the one dated 2nd September, which is from an Albanian to an Albanian and signed by a Vlora no less. Perhaps local nationlism was at play. After all, as far as the Albanians themselves were concerned he was King, not prince. Though, quite why it is in French, is a little difficult to understand.

Cheers

James

Dear Artan,

I am just looking for any sort of actual verification from an official source which equates the Military Medal with the Medal of the Order of the Black Eagle. I am perfectly happy to have it via Albanian or any other precision. Any precision will do. Although, given that the prince was a Prussian officer, one could ask why not Prussian?

As for the regnal titles. Wilhelm was proclaimed as Mbret (King) with the style of Madheri (Majesty) when the delegation led by Essad Pasha descended upon Neuwied in February 1914. I gather that these were the usual forms of address for the Ottoman Sultan. When the King landed in Durazzo in March, everyone addressed him as King, including members of his court and other foreign officials. However, shortly afterwards "clarification" was issued after protests from some of the protecting powers who, citing the London Treaty where 'Prince' is specified, insisted that the titles be rendered as 'Prince' and 'Highness' only.

According to Heaton-Armstrong, who aslo calls him King in his diary, the European Royal Houses did not think Wilhelm would last the course. They did not want another exiled King roaming European courts and causing embarrasment all round.

Consequently, one would need to look at the dates of the documents concerned before one can necessarily cite them as examples of confusion.

Cheers,

James

Dear Sir,

According to the son of the awarded, his father called his medal "Bese dhe Bashkim". You know that "Bese dhe Bashkim" is the motto of the Black Eagle Order. I know also another document, that calls this medal so (see attach).

Hello Artan,

Again, many thanks for the interesting document. However, that document also does not actually equate or even mention the Black Eagle order or medals. It only mentions "fidelity/loyalty and unity". While this motto may be on the Black Eagle order it isn't conclusive evidence that the two decorations are the same or that the same motto may not have been used elsewhere.

Is there any subtle difference in meaning between "bese e bashkim" and "bese dhe bashkim"

With good wishes,

James

Dear James,

This "Medaille Militaire en Argent" is the Silver Medal of the Black Eagle Order (see attach). Note: The date of the document is "2.IX.1914", only a day before the departure of Prince Wied from Albania, on 03.09.1914. The awarded person, was the official translator of Prince in Albania and the decoration was as a last recognition of the Prince to his faithful collaborators.

Artan,

Many thanks.

Is your equation of the "Medaille Militaire en argent" with the Medal of the Order of the Black Eagle based on any actual hard evidence or is it a guess?

It seems to me there is nothing in the award document to say that the award conferred has anything to do with the Black Eagle. So do you have any other document which confirms that they are the same?

Also, isn't the picture a civil Black Eagle Medal?

With good wishes,

James

Dear James,

This "Medaille Militaire en Argent" is the Silver Medal of the Black Eagle Order (see attach). Note: The date of the document is "2.IX.1914", only a day before the departure of Prince Wied from Albania, on 03.09.1914. The awarded person, was the official translator of Prince in Albania and the decoration was as a last recognition of the Prince to his faithful collaborators.

Artan,

Many thanks.

Is your equation of the "Medaille Militaire en argent" with the Medal of the Order of the Black Eagle based on any actual hard evidence or is it a guess?

It seems to me there is nothing in the award document to say that the award conferred has anything to do with the Black Eagle. So do you have any other document which confirms that they are the same?

Also, isn't the picture a civil Black Eagle Medal?

With good wishes,

James

Dear Sir,

I am still excited for the last found in Albania, here attached. I found it two days ago and is propriety of the san of the person named there. For your next trip in Albania call me before.

Best regards.

Artan

Artan,

This is very interesting indeed.

Any details on this "Military Medal"? I have not heard of it before.

Cheers,

James

Alas, I already have a small collection of highly used Indian publications that are now little more than collections of pages, the bindings having fallen apart. So I shall have to forego the opportunity of adding another one to keep them company at ?85.00 a throw.

Cheers,

James

http://www.navy.lk/index.php?id=32

Spotted Chavasse's uniforms hanging in a very posh antiques shop in my father's street in Dublin. The DSC and Bar ribbon drew my attention. 39-45 Star, Africa with Rosette (Presumably the 'date' Bar), Atlantic Star, Burma Star, War Medal + MID and, on the jacket with Queen's Crown buttons, the 1953 Coronation Medal. Mess Dress, two jackets, a great coat, belt and the accompanying trousers, stated by the shop owner to have been bought in Cork. All by Gieves of Saville Row. No medals - Oh yes...I asked! - but still, quite a find in a relatively militaria-free zone like Dublin!

If anyone is interested, or has his medals, drop me a line and I'll give you the shop's details. Not cheap but I think they're trying it on a bit with the price and, anyway, cash is king at the moment.

PK

Why not drop a line to the SL Navy chief?

Who knows, they may wish to buy the uniforms for their museum and may have a donor willing to purchase it for them.

Cheers,

James

Any clarity on what the deal is about two versions of the ribbon:

- red/black as Eric posted

- but I've also seen several blue / white versions

It seems that Eric's ribbon is the correct original. That is clear from contemporary colour portraits and illustrations of the prince at the time.

Cheers

James

PS, I forgot to mention that the Iranian Humayun Order probably dates from 1939, when the Iranian Crown Prince Muhammad Reza Pahlavi married King Farouk's sister (16 March 1939). It was a huge event and almost certainly Baker would have been involved in the police and security arrangements.

This may explain the absence of a permission in the LG. Permission is unlikely in the case of this type of reason for an award.

Cheers,

James

I have searched the London Gazette online and have found the entries for only a part of the awards (i.e. the Egyptians, the Italian and obviously for the British). I also contacted an UK friend of mine (well known in the OMRS circuit) and he advised me that Baker was proposed for the award of the Egyptian medal for devotion in c. 1933.

Nothing was found for the others.

So, in conclusion, if your thinking is correct the 'Greek, Distinguished Service medal' was surely a post 1933 award and Not a WW1 one.

Hello Lilo,

Do you actually mean pre-1933?

The Greek award is listed in the Who's Who entry before the Egyptian Medal for Devotion.

Cheers,

James

James:

Have you seen this book?

Hi Ulsterman,

Indeed, I have.

Alas, I sold it off by mistake!

James

I cannot really answer the question posed in the original post, but a few bits of background information on the subject in general.

Who's Who entries are not dreamed up by some fool sitting in a publishing house cellar or grate. The entries are basically the product of the subject's own hand. Thus the Greek Distinguished Service Medal is the name that the officer himself would have entered on the form.

Egypt, before the revolution, had a substantial resident Greek population. They mostly resided in Alexandria and Cairo. So one could imagine all sorts of situations where a police officer may have acted to protect Greek citizens or property.

During WW2 King George II and the Greek Government in Exile, in addition to the fleet, army and air force were located in Egypt following their evacuation from Crete. Again, one could imagine all sorts of situations where a police officer could have performed distinguished services to them.

Perhaps what you could do is look through the London Gazette for permissions for the other foreign decorations listed. Since the listing of awards is not according to class or grade, one suspects that he has listed them according to date. Once you have got the dates of the other awards, the chronological sequence may give you an idea of the date of the Greek award.

Cheers,

James

The Black Eagle Order military division was distinguished from the civil division for knights [and likely, officers] by the addition of crossed swords to the ribbon, not the badge. [illustrated in J. Jacob's Court Jewelers of the World.]

There is a portrait of the Prince wearing the badge of the military division on the dust jacket of Heaton-Armstrong's book.

Cpoyright I.B. Taurus. http://media.us.macmillan.com/jackets/500H/9781850437611.jpg

Heaton-Armstrong also says that he reveived the Commander grade with 'crossed swords' when he left the prince's service.

Cheers

James

I apologize. I forgot. The officer is an albanian major wearing mod.1920 uniform, in a photo of 1921.

Artan,

A little strange that if he was an officer, he did not receive the military division of the order with 'crossed sword'.

The impression I got from reading Heaton-Armstrong was that military officers received the military division.

James

I must second 922F in his vote of thanks for the publication of the last picture. I too have not seen it before.

As regards the orders being worn by the Prince in the last but one, perhaps you are right about the badge of the Order of Carol I. I guess by "Grand Commander" is meant the second class?

About the other orders, my guess is that he is wearing the orders of the principal guaranteeing powers.

Cheers

James

On another thread we have been trying to identify the orders and decorations worn by Prince Wilhelm of Wied, briefly Sovereign Prince of Albania in 1914.

One Albanian source says that he was made a "Grand Commander" (2nd class??) of the Romanian Order of Carol I in 1911 or 1912.

Is there anyone out there who is able to verify this from any official source such as an appointment list or roll of the order?

It also appears from the photographs that he received the GC of the Order of the Star of Romania. Can this appointment and any other Romanian decorations be confirmed?

Prince Wilhelm was closely linked to Romania through his own connection with the late Queen Elisabeth 'Carmen Silva'. His wife was linked through her descent from the Catacuzino family of Moldavia and owned landed properties there. Indeed, the couple settled in Romania during the 1930's and became citizens, so they could have both received several Romanian decorations.

Cheers

James

Upper row 4. Cruz de Toluca 1821

Lower row 1. Crus de Azcapotzalco 1821

Lower row 2. Cruz de Juchi

Lower row 3. Cruz de Veracruz 1822

JBFloyd

Many thanks,

That is most helpful.

Cheers,

James

Thanks Ed, I took a look but the OMSA database only seems to have two out of the seven crosses pictured in my earlier post.

Cheers,

James

I have found a set of illustrations of some of these crosses and wonder if we could put names to those that I cannot identify.

Upper row:

Item 1- Cruz de la Independencia Mexicana.

Item 2 - Crucero de Tepeaca.

Item 3 - Estrella de C?rdoba.

Item 4 - ?

Lower row:

Item 1 - ?

Item 2 - Crucero de Juchi.

Item 3 - ?

There also appears to have been a decoration mentioned in the biographies of some of the generals of the independence period as the Medalla de los Libertadores de M?xico. Was this the same as one of those already listed by Paul or something different?

Cheers

James

Paul,

Thanks a milliaon, that is a good start.

I have been looking for Groves here in London for some time but even the British Library does not seem to have it.

Cheers,

James

Does anyone have details about the decorations and medals of Mexico for the independence period up to 1830?

I cannot find details anywhere online.

The Order of Guadalupe is fairly well known and I found a good deal about them. However, there were also a number of purely military decorations and medals. There were seven crosses (or stars) which seem to pertain to particular battles. Of these I have found information on three:

The Tepeaca Cross (Crucero de Tepeaca): awarded to officers and men who served with distinction during the defence of Tepeaca under General Herrera 20^th-21^st April 1821 when the independence forces were defeated by the Spanish.

The Cordova Star (Estrella de C?rdoba): awarded to officers and men of the 9^th Division of the Ej?rcito Trigarante (army of the three guarantees: religion, independence and unity) in the actions against the Spanish forces at the City of C?rdoba 16^th to 21^st May 1821.

The Juchi Cross (Crucero de Juchi): awarded to officers and men who took part in suppressing the uprising by the withdrawing Spanish forces led by Colonel Francisco Buceli at Juchi on 2^nd April 1822.

Any information on the other four crosses or on the medals would be appreciated.

With thanks,

James