James Hoard

I daresay, if the American Revolution never took place today, 'Canada' and the 'US' would be one of the largest countries in the world today!

I doubt it.

If the American Revolution never happened, France would not have gone bankrupt and had their revolution, so ultimately no need for a Boney to sell Louisiana. Expansion eastwards would have been severely limited.

To answer the question of this thread, the answer is a flat No. The British Regiments that fought from 1776-81 all refused to take their victories and emblonzon them on their colours because they considered the rebellion to be fighting against their own people and thought it a very distasteful war. Its forgotten in the United States today but the American colonists were Englishmen and revolted against their King. Indeed, if you look at the Regimental histories of the (29th) Worcestershire Regiment (The vein openers) or the (23rd) Royal Welch Fusiliers, one will note they refused 'Bunker's Hill', 'Boston' and so on.

Well, if they were "Englishmen" the RWF would never have refused!

James,

These are not medals of Jath State, which was only 980 sq miles in Kolhapur and Deccan States area and there are no records of any medals being struck by Jath. As far as I can remember (remember) Jath was not a Princely State but a Zamindari where the Zamindar held the title of Raja not to be mistaken for Raja which the British recognised as royalty.

Cheers

Sushil

Sushil,

Jath was a non salute state. Please see http://www.royalark.net/India2/jath.htm

The rulers were sans title until 1935. They had originally been Desmukhs of Bijapur and made themselves independent when it fell in 1686. The holder, who had been a military Sardar, then joined the Mughals and was made a mansabdar and was recognised as an Imperial vassal. In 1819 the Desmukh was recognised as a British guaranteed jagirdar under the Raja of Satara. They then became direct tributaries in 1839. The title of Raja was conferred as a hereditary distinction, on the gentleman whose picture I posted, in 1935. He only left daughters, so had no immediate successor.

There was a certain Captain Rajindra Sinh Vijay Sinh Dafle, of the 1st Mahratta Light Infantry, who served in the Indo-Pak War of 1971 and was awarded the Vr.C. He may or may not have been Raja' Vijaysinhrao's adopted son.

The Raja merged his state into Bombay in March 1948, so could have instituted his own medals in the period between August 1947 and March 1948. There was nobody to stop him during that time.

Cheers,

James

James,

The three medals are surely those of some Indian Princely State/s, the question is which one/s?

Rgds

Sushil

Indeed that is the interesting question.

But I guess that identifications having surfaced so far, our resident expert may not actually know themselves.

Perhaps these were medals instituted by the Raja of Jath himself. During the brief 'Indian Summer' between Independence on the 15th of August 1947 and actual merging of the states into India or Pakistan between 1940 and 1950, several rulers went to town instituting orders and decorations. May be he was one of them.

An interesting mystery.

Cheers,

James

TS

What was the other uniform you got with the one posted?

Cheers,

James

I have done a little bit of googling and found these two articles with some pictures. They are small, so not very helpful, though one can establish the following.

http://www.bbs.com.bt/HM%20grants%20Druk%2...%20Wangyel.html

The above features several recipients of the Druk Thuksey. From this we can conclude that the picture posted earlier by fjcp is in fact the Druk Thuksey.

http://www.bbs.com.bt/His%20Majesty%20awar...f%20Bhutan.html

The above features a picture of the two recipients of the Druk Wangyel. The design of the insignia is quite different from the Druk Thuksey, so we can conclude that they are indeed separate awards. The Druk Wangyel insignia seems to consist of a badge worn from an orange neck ribbon with gold edges with, apparently, a star worn on the breast but unusually suspended from a medal ribbon of the same colour, orange with gold edges. I seem to remember that there was some old Turkish Ottoman order that was worn in a similar fashion.

Cheers,

James

I am happy to defer to superior knowledge.

What I did was magnify and brighten the picture but the only conlcusion I could draw was that the ribbon still looked dark, very slightly lighter than the War Medal ribbon. I then looked up the Medal Year Book and the only other possible star seemed to be the Pacific Star, with a largely green centre, which probably would appear lighter than the red of the War Medal in a b/w photo.

What are the three medals and from which princely states?

Cheers,

James

An interesting article with a nice, although small pic of the Druk Thuksey medal. I think it hasn't been shown although it has been mentioned!

JC

article

Thanks for the link, but I am not very certain what the picture is actually of.

If one looks at the article, the picture is labelled as "Druk Thuksey". However, look at the URL for the actual picture shown and it says "drukwangyel". Indeed, the picture is placed next to a paragraph about awards of the Druk Wangyel.

However, the ribbon and design are almost identical to what is usually called the Royal Order of Bhutan. Give or take the usual design modifications for a lower class of the order.

Of course, it is always possible that "Druk Wangyel" (which translates as 'Great Victory of the Thunder Dragon') is the name in Bhutanese for what is called the "Royal Order of Bhutan" in English.

The final possibility is that both "Druk Wangyel" (which translates as Great Victory of the Thunder Dragon)and "Druk Thuksey" (which translates as 'Son of the Heart of the Thunder Dragon') are different classes of the same decoration, which Westerners have come to call "The Royal Order of Bhutan".

As a general observation I have noticed that members of OMSA frequently label any order that happens to come from a foreign kingdom and whose name they do not know as "the Royal Order of (name of country)".

Cheers,

James

The second class set on the right belonged to his nephew, The Rt Hon Sir Felix Cassel, Bart, KC, sometime Judge Advocate General.

? Christie's 2008

The first lot consisted of Sir Ernest Cassel's First Class Full Dress Civil Uniform, First Class Levee Dress Civil Uniform, Cloak and the "Russian" pill-box style cap (not B ritish) went for US$2,940.

The second lot consisted of the rest: Sir Felix Cassels Second Class Full Dress Civil Uniform, white breeches and court shoes with gilt buckles; First Class Lev?e Dress coatee and trousers; sword with gilt hilt, gold lace sword-knot with bullion tassel complete with chamois leather slip and black oil-skin outer cover; bicorne hat; double breasted great coat, Wellington boots, shirts, collars and other sundry items all sold for US$ 4,900.

Cheers,

James

A very interesting group indeed. Which are the the three medals before the Independence Medal? And, why a Pacific Star? Should be a Burma Star.

Cheers

Sushil

Sushil,

I do not follow what you mean by three medals before the Independence Medal. The Independence Medal seems to be the first in the group. The ones I do not know about are the second, third and fourth (i.e. between the Independence Medal and 39/45 Star).

I said Pacific Star because it was the usual award for the Navy for Service in the Indian Ocean, Pacific or South China Sea. The Burma Star was restricted to operational service in Burma waters and Eastern Bay of Bengal. Though I gather that they were also been awarded for service off the Coasts of Sumatra.

Yours etc

James

I found this interesting picture showing early twentieth century examples of full sets of both the First and Second Class Civil Uniforms in both full dress and levee versions.

Sold at Spinks in 2000 the first class set of the left belonged to The Rt Hon Sir Ernest Cassel, GCB, GCMG, the great financier and grandfather of Lady Edwina Mountbatten.

The second class set on the right belonged to his nephew, The Rt Hon Sir Felix Cassel, Bart, KC, sometime Judge Advocate General.

? Christie's 2008

Cheers,

James

Hi,

Does anyone know if there are any online resources for searching details on those buried at Arlington National Cemetary in Washington?

I am trying to find details on a Major Murad (Harry) Baig and his family, who were all killed in a fire at the Imperial Hotel in Bangkok in 1971. They were supposedly all buried in a single grave at Arlington.

Baig had been an intelligence officer in Vietnam and then served as an intelligence adviser to the Thai Army. He had an interesting background. His father was the Pakistani Foreign Secretary and he was educated at Clifton in Bristol, England, a school noted for preparing people for Sandhurst. He decided to enlist in the US Marines instead, then earned a commission a few years later and had a very distinguished couple of tours in Vietnam. His wife was the daughter of Count Nicholas de Rochefort, a Russian emigre who worked for the CIA and Voice of America for many years.

Thanks,

James

The Marshal of the Diplomatic Corps a few posts up is a fourth or fifth class uniform, which to me seems rather odd.

~TS

I am not surre how you make that out.

The collar and cuffs for the third to the fifth class are given on page 38 with colour illustrations between pp 38-39 in the bboklet http://www.archive.org/stream/dressinsigniawor00greauoft

As far as I can tell it seems to be the Civil Uniform 2nd Class Levee Dress.

Cheers

James

Sir Edwin Leather, Governor of Bermuda 1973-1977. As it happens also a Canadian!

Cheers,

James

I appreciate the links to the book... Now time to get some of the other diplomatic uniforms. A Governor General perhaps????

Dave

Not diplomatic but Civil Uniform First Class.

Herewith examples of a Governor-General and Governor's uniform in colour.

The Rt Hon Roland Michener, Governor-General of Canada 1967-1974

Thanks a million Lawrence, that is a great help.

I have since learned that this is the last Raja of Jath, Lieutenant-Commander Raja Vijaysinhrao Ramrao Raje Dafle, Raja of Jath. Born 21^st July 1909. 14^th August 1928. Succeeded Died, 12^th July 1998. He was Cmsnd as Hon Sub-Lieut RIN 27/6/1934, prom Hon Lieut 27/6/1937, served in WW2 1940 ? 1944 (no details found), and prom Hon Lieut-Cdr 27/6/1945.

Could the third last medal be a Delhi Durbar silver medal from 1911? He would have been Heir Apparent and aged two years and six months at that time. Did they receive the medal whatever their age, as did later Heirs Apparent the George VI Coronation Medal in 1937. One of the latter recipients was so young he was still unnamed!

Cheers,

James

Hello James,

Would you give us a close-up of the medals?

Doc

Unfortunately, I have posted the largest that I have.

I can only suggest that if you have a zoom facility on your page settings to try and use that to magnify the picture.

My particular interest was drawn by the second, third and fourth medals. The first appears to be the Indian Independence Medal. The fifth would be the 39/45 star, the next probably Pacific Star, War Medal follwoed by India Service. Then another mystery before the Silver Jubilee and Coron 1937 Medals.

Cheers,

James

Can someone please be kind enough to identify the medals being worn by this Indian Naval officer from the later 1950's.

Cheers,

James

Order of Logohu (Logohu = Bird of Paradise)

Grand Companion of the Order of Logohu (GCL)

Awarded to those citizens of Papua New Guinea and others for service, achievement, and merit in the highest degree, sustained over a period of twenty years. The award may be given to no more than fifty living persons. This class appears to carry with it the title of "Grand Chief". Examples of this include the obituary of The Rt Revd David Hand, and the official website of Sir Michael Somare who, since his investiture as GCL has used the title "Grand Chief" in place of "Sir", preferring to be known as The Right Honourable Grand Chief M. T. Somare, GCL, GCMG, CH, CF, KstJ.

Is that actually true or is it another urban myth generated by the dreaded "wikipedia"?

As far as I can tell, the PM's style is "Grand Chief Rt Hon Sir Michael Somare, GCL, GCMG, CH, CF, KStJ".

The Governor-General is similarly styled "H.E. Grand Chief Sir Paulias Matane, GCL, GCMG, OBE, KStJ" At least that was how he was officially styled at the King of Tonga's coronation in 2008.

Indeed, I would be quite surprised to see otherwise, since Somare took such great pains NOT to follow the Australian methods in all this and kick dust in the face of the Brits. British awards have been retained for the Queen's Birthday awards, the Princess Royal was invited to preside at the first new indigeneous awards ceremony, she and her husband were appointed to two of the orders, and later the Prince of Wales and Duke of Edinburgh also received appointments in the senior grade.

Cheers,

James

There are uniforms grander than that? I'd barely have believed that you'd spend that much time, effort, and money fancying up a coat until I saw that booklet!

I've long collected military uniforms but these civil uniforms are starting to make my head spin. I think I should go back to nice, plain red tunic with less then ten pounds of bullion on them. Still, I love the history behind these jackets and they're beautiful to look at.

Being and American I've never been able to fully wrap my head around the British honors system but it is still fascinating that this is the correct uniform for a privy councilor. I've seen the title used before but I always assumed it was a mostly honorary title. Interesting to see some of the privileges it affords.

According to that text, which I assume is quoting the regs, this levee uniform could be substituted for the full dress uniform on all occasions. What little research I did do turned up quite a few full dress uniforms but only one levee dress uniform (actually, I found the only example of levee dress on this forum) and I had assumed, because I only found a handful of uniforms named to high figures, that the full dress pattern was actually unique to commonwealth heads of state or something. That uniform is beautiful! I can only imagine the contemporary cost, as well. I'm going to be on the look out for a print showing a late Victorian State Ball too display with this uniform.

I jumped at this uniform not knowing much about at and probably spent more money that I could afford. But, I'm incredibly happy with it and the more I'm learning the happier I am. I did figure out that the uniform was first class on my own, at least.

James, thanks for that link. The illustrations are great. I've been thumbing through it for a while now.

~TS

The booklet that I gave is dated 1921 and therefore takes into account the relaxation of rules brought on by the Great War 1914-1918. By then the cost of the Full Dress First Class Civil Uniform had meant that it was getting out of the reach of some "poor" Privy Councillors. Remember that most government ministers have to be sworn of the Privy Council, and by the time of the Great War a good number of them no longer came from the traditional landed or moneyed classes. Although they could rent the uniforms from Moss Bros, they still cost the earth. Hence the relaxation in allowing the Levee Dress version to be used on state occasions.

Governors and Governor Generals had their own uniform, which they wore if they did not hold the rank of Rear Admiral or equivalent and higher. That uniform is illustrated a few pages down. The hat is magnificent, a layer of red goose feathers eminating from the top, covered by a layer of pure white feathers over the red. A slight breeze produces a marvelous effect.

One sometimes sees the Full Dress uniform worn by some Canadian Lieutenant-Governors even today, since Lieutenant-Governors are entitled to the Second Class Civil Uniform. It is similiar to the First Class but with slightly less gold embroidery (four inches to the cuff instead of five, etc). Though, for some odd reason ever since a member of the Canadian Monarchist League wrote some rot about it being the "Windsor Uniform" and "especially approved for Canadian LGs in the 1930's", people have started calling it that up north, even on official government websites. Entirely incorrect s incethe Windsor Uniform, also described in the booklet, is a very different animal.

As far as the UK is concerned, nowadays we tend to only see the Civil Uniforms worn by members of the diplomatic service. Normally the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs or the Marshal of the Diplomatic Corps (if not a military gent) will be seen wearing them when a new foreign Ambassador is presenting his credentials to HM. British Ambassadors to foreign countries, usually to those monarchies that still hold the old fashioned "stiff" formal gala or court ceremonies (e.g. Thailand or Denmark), attend wearing the civil uniform.

Here's a link to a recent picture of the Marshal of the Diplomatic Corps in London, Sir Anthony Figgs, with the Rumanian Ambassador after the latter presented his credentials to the Queen http://londra.mae.ro/images/images_stiri/l...08_05_02(3).jpg

Cheers,

James

I was hoping for a diplomat but this is still a fascinating fellow. I actually didn't know until today that these uniforms were used by non-diplomats. I was always under the impression that the rather more simple 'court dress' that I had often seen was standard for others and that this jacket was limited to the foreign service.

~TS

TS,

As a Privy Councillor he is as high as the highest ranking Ambassadors, who would have usually been made Privy Councillors themselves.

What you have purchased is actually the First Class Civil Uniform - Levee Dress. The Full Dress version is much grander, with the whole breast covered in gold thread embroidery of oak leaves and the like in a sort of "V" shape from the shoulders to the waist. The latter was worn with white knee breeches, white silk hose and pumps.

You may like to go through the booklet called "Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court" (1921).

Here is a link to an online version, you can turn the pages and look at the descriptions and illustrations in colour (after wading through a host of adverts):

http://www.archive.org/stream/dressinsigniawor00greauoft

Hope the link works!

Cheers,

James

I just picked up a beautiful Victorian era diplomatic uniform from Hogspear's Ebay auctions. Since the auction has only just closed I can't share any pictures of how I'm going to display it but I thought I'd get right on the task of trying to ID it. I'll be sure to post pictures of it and the consular uniform I picked up as soon as they arrive.

The item comes in a beat-up period tin named to the Right Honorable Wolfe Flanagan. The uniform has Victorian buttons. I know that one of these was IDed by forum member a while back, so I hope that I'll have similar luck. I'm not sure if the uniform itself is named but I can't wait to get it, I've never actually seen one in person and I consider it one of the most beautiful uniforms ever made. The names off the tin.

Oh, if anyone's curious and would like to take a look, the Ebay item number is 350142785057. I also picked up a British 'consular' uniform that I decided was worth the chance, I've never seen anything like it outside of pictures before, but I just liked the look of it. I guess I collect British diplomatic corps uniforms, who knew?

Thanks for the help,

~TS

Hello TS,

A lovely find.

To be a little more precise, there is no such thing as a "diplomatic uniform".

These are civil court uniforms. Although diplomats were entitled to wear them according to whatever their particular rank according to the table of precedence, so were civil servants and other civil officials such as governors, lieutenant-governors, administrators, privy councillors and the like.

In this case your man is The Rt Hon Stephen Woulfe Flanagan, who was in 1877 a Member of HM's Privy Council in Ireland and Judge of the Landed Estates Court. He was sworn of the Privy Council of Great Britain on 12th December 1885.

Source: London Gazette online.

Cheers,

James

The "one nation under God" was never part of the verbage used prior to 1892, when the American Pledge of Alliegance was written and later authorized. The "under God" part was not part of the original pledge. It was added in the 1950's during Eisenhower's administration.

Some folks forget that the country began with church and state being tacitly separate without official "co-mingling.".

Les

I don't know about the "under God" part, but the Nazi salute's give me a good many more shivers!

Cheers,

James

James,

Believe me the book is just fine in terms of the content, quality of print and the binding. This was one of the things the USI was particulat about.

Rgds

Sushil

Thanks, but having been cought out before I would still prefer to see some pictures for myself first.

If you do not have any, is there any link to the publishers or a USI website which has some images for view?

Cheers,

James

Generally, in the past the British War Department never awarded Battle Honours to units involved in unsuccessful campaigns, and this would especially apply to the American War for Independence, since the loss of the colonies affected the often deranged George III badly and he would have to approve them.

George III suffered from a blood desease, not from any effects of the loss of the former American colonies.

He greeted John Adams, the first US Envoy sent to open diplomatic relations with Great Britain, with a warm handshake and told him "I was the last man in England to consent to the Independence of America, I will be the last in the world to sanction any violation of it."

If those were the sentiments of a deranged mind, let us have more of them.

Cheers,

James