James Hoard
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Posts posted by James Hoard
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Hi Mervyn,
I must admit to being a bit confused as to which area some of the items should now be posted. I posted this on the British and Commonwealth Police Forces section as India was under British rule at the time of the photo. I also noticed that some of the older Indian Police medal groups are also in the section for world police services.
I am thinking that my Special Constabulary Long Service Medals should be under British and Commonwealth as would any Canadian items I have as Canada is a part of the Commonwealth of Nations. South Africa and India are also members of the 53 nation Commonwealth organization.
Are we now going to post ONLY British items under the original thread? If so then I would respectfully suggest the Titles be changed to, "British Police Forces" and "World Police Forces", leaving the term "Commonwealth" out. Personaly I like the "British & COmmonwealth Police Forces" title as we (Canada and South Africa) are part of the Commonwealth of Nations. I hope that is not too political for the forum, as it was not meant to be so.
Any direction regarding where to post "Commonwealth" items would be welcomed.
Regards
Brian
Hi Brian,
As far as I am aware, the modern Commonwealth of Nations would not even exist without India taking a very active part in the decisions of 1947-1949. So it is a little difficult to see exactly who would possibly object to India being in the Commonwealth section. Certainly not any citizen of India that I know.
Cheers
James
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Yes. And the events in Bardoli District that are mentioned in his Khan Sahib recommendation were led by a terrorist (to the British) named Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
I see nothing in the sitation which suggests anything of the kind.
Had the event been regarded as terrorism, the recommending officer would hardly have used the term "Satyagraha campaign" to describe it.
Cheers
James
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http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2009/post-3034-1237292717.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2009/post-3034-1237292745.jpg
An original signature and portrait photograph of Sir Douglas Haig.
What a wonderful collection.
Thanks for taking the trouble to post these lovely photographs, so that the rest of us who would never have a chance at seeing it.
I very small criticism, for when and if you have the time and inclination: Earl Haig's post-nominals are a wee jangled. They should be "KT, GCB, OM, GCVO, KCIE".
Cheers,
James
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With only 33 awards made between 1933 and 1940 this is a very rare award. I do not have the sash badge but here are photos of the breast star which I purchased in Spink a few years ago. First up the obverse
The quality of manufacture is amazing.
Paul,
You are very lucky fellow to have this in your collection.
A lovely piece, thanks for posting.
What is the stoe in the centre of the star? Saphire, diamond?
Cheers,
James
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Emmanuel
Thanks for posting. This is wonderful to see, since I have only ever come across poor quality black and white photographs.
This is actually the third class, Maha Thray Sithu or Commander. The second class consists of a breast star which is smaller in size than the breast star of the first class.
Who was this decoration awarded to?
Cheers
James
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So once again it seems that a "reputable" dealer has a medal without a ribbon, puts it on any old thing he happens to have handy and flogs it off as genuine.
No doubt it will not be long before it is all over the net on various websites confusing everybody.
We have had a similar discussion elsewhere regarding two Afghanistan orders. One tries to explain that it is wrong until one is blue in one's face, but nobody believes you.
Errrrrrrh!
Cheers,
James
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The star is neither from an Indian State nor Bokhara.
One idea was that it could be the star of the Medjidieh Order of Turkey. The outward shape and the central medallian suggest this. However, this star seems to have something that resembles seashells, where the stars and crescents would be.
Cheers
James
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The attached picture is of Sardar Nasrullah Khan, brother of Habibullah Shah of Afghanistan.
Does anyone happen to recognise the second star which he wears on his left breast?
The first star and aigrette are clearly the insignia of the Order of the Sun.
Cheers
James
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Lilo
Your estimate for 1960 may be correct because new statutes were published in that year. I am told that Adenauer received his insignia in 1963.
Cheers
James
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Hello Lilo,
?In your quote (I reported above), you have stated the Order of the Sun to be the same as that called Astour?.
Sorry, this is my mistake Astour is Star, as you say. Almar really translates as "Supreme Sun", as in full or mid-day sun, as opposed to a setting or rising sun.
?- Order of the Sun (or 'Nishan-i-Almar') two different (in colours) ribbons were used :
1) First type was : 'pale blue' used from the istitution of this Order to about the 1933 (year in which King Zahir Shah came to the power);
2) When in 1933 King Zahir Shah came to the power, the colours of the ribbons for the Order of the Sun changed in pale blue of a more 'electric' shade + the addition of narrow cerise coloured stripes toward each edge (i.e. 2nd type of ribbon). This last was the colour used till the demise of this Order in the first half of the '70s.?
Yes regarding the colours. No, I never mentioned the date 1933 anywhere. All I know is that the colour of the ribbon was changed sometime during the reign of Zahir Shah. Perhaps in the late 1950?s or early 1960?s but I do not know the date. Chancellor Adenaur of Germany received his GC with this second colour, that why I give this timing.
?- Order of the Star (or 'Nishan-i-Astour') two different (in colours) ribbons were used :
1) First type of the ribbon was : 3 equal stripes of blue/red/blue. This ribbon was used till about 1933 (year in which King Zahir Shah came to the power) when the ribbon changed its colours becoming the 2nd type of the ribbon;
2) Second type of the ribbon was introduced in 1933 (when King Zahir Shah came to the power); the colours of the ribbons for the Order of the Star changed into the 'Cerise' one.?
Yes regarding the colours. But again, I mentioned no date. Perhaps it was changed at the same time as the Order of the Sun, but I do not know when.
?1) Is it correct what I have understood about the colours of the ribbons of the two Orders??
Please see my answers above.
2) If yes, from what source have you taken these very important conclusions/information ?
See above and my earlier posting.
3) In the specific (I would like to know) from what source you have taken the fact that for the Order of the Star (or 'Nishan-i-Astour') was used a 1st type of ribbon (blue/red/blue) ?
See my earlier post and my e-mail to you. My brother had a third class neck badge with original ribbon from the reign of Amanullah. One of the online German or Swiss auction houses also had an almost identical third class badge on a similar coloured ribbon.
4) Am I correct in having understood that the change of colours of the types of the ribbons for both Orders happened in 1933 with the rule of King Zahir Shah ?
No.
The confusion over the ribbon colours probably all stems from Werlich, who appears to have confused the two orders. He does not mention the Order of the Star (Astour) at all, only the Orders of the Sun, Independence, Leader and the Dooranee Empire. Then, he says that the ribbon of the Order of the Sun was blue-red-blue.
Cheers,
James
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Hello Lilo,
I am sorry to say that your reasoning isn't correct.
You are right about the naming on the website of the Royal Army Museum in Belgium, but wrong about the ribbon colours.
The base colour of the ribbon of the Order of the Sun has always been pale blue. There was a change under King Zahir Shah to 'blue and red', but that is as far as the description goes. The actual "new" colours of the Zahir Shah ribbon were pale blue of a more 'electric' shade than before, with the addition of narrow cerise coloured stripes towards each edge. Here is the GC ribbon:
' alt='' class='ipsImage' >
Order of the Sun, first class ribbon - Zahir Shah
The Order of the Sun (or Astour) was equal stripes of blue-red-blue until the reign of Zahir Shah when it was changed to cerise. My brother owned an Amanullah third class neck badge with ribbon. Here it is:
' alt='' class='ipsImage' >
The Order of the Star, third class ribbon - Amanullah Shah
With best wishes,
James
Apologies, my attachments did not take properly in the above post.
The second ribbon should be:
Cheers,
James
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Hello Lilo,
I am sorry to say that your reasoning isn't correct.
You are right about the naming on the website of the Royal Army Museum in Belgium, but wrong about the ribbon colours.
The base colour of the ribbon of the Order of the Sun has always been pale blue. There was a change under King Zahir Shah to 'blue and red', but that is as far as the description goes. The actual "new" colours of the Zahir Shah ribbon were pale blue of a more 'electric' shade than before, with the addition of narrow cerise coloured stripes towards each edge. Here is the GC ribbon:
' alt='' class='ipsImage' >
Order of the Sun, first class ribbon - Zahir Shah
The Order of the Sun (or Astour) was equal stripes of blue-red-blue until the reign of Zahir Shah when it was changed to cerise. My brother owned an Amanullah third class neck badge with ribbon. Here it is:
' alt='' class='ipsImage' >
The Order of the Star, third class ribbon - Amanullah Shah
With best wishes,
James
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Hi James,
Many thanks for your replay and kind offer (PM sent).
However, at the best of my knowledge, the ribbon colours blue/red/blue were just the colours used for the Order of the Sun.
(please bear also in mind that another -1st type- ribbon, different from the blue/red/blue before mentioned, was used for the Order of the Sun).
In conclusion I think that the photo you have in your catalog is that of the Order of the Sun with his correct 2nd type of ribbon (i.e. blue/red/blue).
What is not clear to me is what let you think that the dealer attached a wrong Order from the blue/red/blue ribbon (which thing I know to be correct) ?
Returning to my previous question I agree with you that the Cerise is the correct colour used for the ribbon of the Order of the STAR.
My modest opinion is that the other ribbon (that with the Black/Red/Green' colours) was used by people who did not know the correct ribbon to use with this Order, but I would like this matter to be judged by other forum members.
Hello Lilo,
I have just sent you the ribbon that I mentioned.
The ribbon of the Order of the Sun (as well as the ankle length GC cape) at that time was definitely pale blue. 1) The original insignia and the Grand Cordon presented to King Albert of the Belgians by King Amanullah during the same visit to Europe in 1928 survives. It is at the Belgian Army Museum and they used to have a website with some pictures which you may be able to find by googling. 2) I have two hand coloured photograph of King Nadir Shah and King Zahir Shah from the 1930s where the cordon is colured pale blue. 3) I also have a b/w picture of Queen Suraya from 1928 where she is wearing the star, badge and sash, which is clearly of a light colour and plain (clearly without any stripes).
The black/red/green ribbon of equal stripes was indeed used by people who prefer to sell a medal with a ribbon than without. However, the Afghans themselves tended to use it for several different medals. At least up to the late 1930's.
Cheers,
James
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Hi Lilo
At the time of King Amanullah the ribbon colours were blue-red-blue.
I have a picture of this Grand Cordon from a sales catalogue, but the dealer had wrongly attached the badge of the Order of the Sun, included a star and was trying to flog them all off as a set. The image is too big to post here, so please drop me a line with your e-mail address and I will send it to you.
The ribbon under King Zahir Shah was red, but I would not call it crimson. It was somewhat darker than crimson. I don't know what to call it. Cerise, perhaps?
Cheers,
James
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Hello James,
yes it is,but only about Kingdom of Madagascar.Almost all the black and white picture are coming from this book published in the 70ies + also the book published about the Decoration at the Museum of Dijon (France) where the grand crosses of Sadi Carnot (President of France around 1889-94) are on display.Concerning coulour pictures,there is even one which comes from me.
But beware the Order of Radama with white ribbon with bleu stripe is a later copy.Actually the Order of Radama was still in the production catalogue of Company Delande in 1934.
How to distinguish later production than from the real one ?
Before 1879,the french export hallmark for silver item,is the head of greek god Hermes (you can also see this god on the first stamps of the third republic of France).It's a god with a helmet.Also the real one are always gilded and very shiny (no silver patina).
Also the real ribbon (red with tiny horizontal white stripes) has never been re-done later.
Well, I did put the word "kingdom" in my post, so there doesn't seem much need to labour the point.
I don't think you are right about the ribbon. I have also seen the "foreign" (white with blue striped ribbon) being mentioned by a British diarist who was sent as part of a diplomatic mission in the nineteenth century. I cannot recall the book or the author, but it was the mission when Radama II was given the uniform of a British Admiral by Queen Victoria.
Indeed, here is a picture of Radama II wearing the order from a third, entirely different ribbon -
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._with_crown.jpg
As for the book from the 1960's, Chris lists two in his sources, but the one I have seen had some pictures but little actual useful detail in the text of the book concerned. Lots of false speculation and incorrect identification, but ultimately not very useful. Even going to the point of including a picture of a star and speculating about it when it was clearly the Star of Moheili, from the sultanate in the Comores.
Cheers,
James
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The Royal Ark website has a good deal of information on the orders and decorations of the Kingdom Madagascar at -
http://www.royalark.net/Madagascar/madaga-orders.htm
Cheers
James
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Ed thanks for posting. Most interesting
Looks like he received Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee Medal aged all of 2 years!
For the crosses, I can identify:
1=Order of St Vladimir of Russia with crossed swords (for Jutland in WWI)
2=Norwegian War Cross.
Cheers
James
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Would the fact that he was a honorary officer have been reason enough to get the medals?Not the best of sources but Wiki
has the following:-:-
Kevin in Deva.
Alas, one cannot rely on wiki for very much. A greater source of missinformation does not exist on this planet.
Churchill wasn't actually "Colonel-in-Chief" of his old regiment, but its Colonel. Technically a regular appointment at the time.
Someone said that the King was "Commander in Chief", this is not so. The King is King. Commander-in-Chief is an office under the King.
The common misunderstanding is due to (sigh) "Americanisation". Because their President is C-in-C it has become common to imagine that other Heads of State are so. The American office is really descended from the old British colonial practice whereby the King's local governor was usually, though not always, also the local C-in-C.
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And the King got WWII medals too . . .
And can you please show us an example of him wearing them.
He never wore any British decorations that he had not received before he became King. This included some of the highest orders in the land, to which he would have been entitled to as Sovereign of those orders.
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There is an official English language publication which has information on decorations and medals with illustrations (drawings). It is the government annual almanac or directory, full of statistics, trade addresses, tourist information, etc. A very general work, which on the face of it should have nothing in it about medals and decoration, but it does. The most recent edition can usually be found on the open shelves of the government directories section of any large good national library.
I faintly remember that it may well be called something like "Burma Year Book and Directory" or "Myanmar Year Book and Directory" but the next time I am at the British Library, I will try and note down the title.
At long last I managed to get down to the British Library on Friday.
Alas, I could not find the book I recall seeing some years ago. However, I did thumb through a fairly recent copy of "Myanmar Facts & Figures" (2000) which had some information on Burmese medals. Colour pictures of about three of the medals and a full list of decorations and awards, including titular honours. But no detail or full set of pictures that I recall seeing in one of these official Burmese directories a few years ago.
Cheers
James
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King George Tupou V established another new order in Tonga during 2008.
It is a Royal Family Order, very similar to those of that name in the UK and other European realms, conferred almost exclusively on female members of the Tongan Royal Family. The insignia consist of an oval miniature portrait of the king in white tropical naval uniform, without cap, wearing orders and medals, against a background of green palms and open sky. The miniature is surrounded by a border of cut-diamonds, with a silver and enamel crown and suspension device at the top. The badge is worn from a bow of mint-green watered silk on the left shoulder.
Cheers
James
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Actually, I was so overwhelmed at beginning to catalog the Ludvigsen library, I got no farther than the COVERS.
Inside each of a number of books is the stamp of Ernst August, first as Prince and then as King of Hanover, varying from his cipher in 1826 to state arms in the 1860s.
This one was on his copy of Hessen-Darmstadt's 1864 Hof- und- Staats Handbuch. Subtle differences in design and no Order of the Garter appended
The two books illustrated here, if dated 1864, would not have belonged to Ernst August, King of Hannover. He died in 1851, when he was succeeded by the blind Georg V.
If the bookplates inside say Ernst August, then they are likely to have belonged to Georg V's son and Crown Prince, better known as the (3rd) Duke of Cumberland.
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Most likely this book belonged to the blind King Georg V of Hannover. 1864 is two years before his deposition by the Prussians.
Have a look inside at the list of knights of the various orders. His name may be there amongst the knights of the Order of St Hubert.
1864 is too early for the other likely candidate, Georg's son, the Duke of Cumberland. He probably did not receive his Garter for several years to come.
Cheers
James
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I seem to remember that the large oversize statute of Marshal Zhukov outside the Kremlin,just around the corner from Red Square, has him wearing his Honorary Knighthood rather prominently. In his case the broad riband, sash badge and breast star of a military GCB.
This is from the early 1990's but I guess the statue may still be there, or has it been moved?
Cheers
James.
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Trinidad and Tobago
in Great Britain: Militaria: Badges, Uniforms & Equipment
Posted
Actually, I understood from a post on this website some time ago, possibly by Megan, that the Order had already been redisgned.
The Trinidad & Tobago case is rather complicated and perplexing to outsiders. But, it is partly linked to a long standing battle between those of Indian descent and those of African descent. The latter used to form the majority of the population on the main island, but the higher birth rate has meant that since the 1970's the balance of demographics has shifted to those of Indian descent. For many years after independence, those of African descent held political power and there has been a great effort by those of Indian descent to redress that situation. Battle lines are drawn on practically every issue and every subject. The former Chief Justice who investigated the honours system mused that if this goes on any longer, they will have to change the name of the country itself, not to mention place names like King's "Cross" and zebra "crossing". He was immediately leaped upon for being biased.
Unlike T&T, British decorations have been happily accepted by all faiths for generations including religious leaders. When it comes to Muslims, the Turkish Khalifas from at least the 1850's, the Aga Khans, the last two Grand Sharifs of Mecca and their descendants in Jordan and Iraq, the grandsons of the Mahdi of the Sudan and several Saudi Kings, including the current Guardian of the Holy Places. There are numerous other Zillullah's from a variety of places from Malaysia to Nigeria, who also happily wore crosses dedicated to saints. In the case of the Turks, their banners with star and crescent were put up alongside their Christian brethren in St George's Chapel in Windsor. Those of the Mecca Sharifs in Westminster Abbey.
My Muslim friends tell me that St George is in fact also a widely revered figure by them as "Khizr".
Perhaps it is a mite late in the day to be complaining now or else the people doing so are either badly versed in the subject or have an agenda of their own.
Cheers
James