James Hoard

quote name='Lukasz Gaszewski' date='Aug 9 2008, 22:24 ' post='284526']

I am also not sure about the Order of the Crown of Terengganu. Either it is a fake ribbon (this ribbon is used by the Order of Kinabalu of Sabah - the 1970 type), or they adopted a new one recently (this happens ocassionally with Malaysian orders). The badge is certainly that of the Order of the Crown.

I am not really sure why anyone should imagine that this object has anything to do with the Rafidain Order. There is nothing to connect the two, either in terms of design, iconography, colours or inscription. The only similarity is that both use a seven pointed star. That seems a pretty tenuous connection.

Given the stones used, it is unlikely to be one that had wide distribution such as a collection of judges or parliamentarians. Instead, it appears to be a one off. Therefore, my own guess is that this decoration is probably part of a mayor's chain of office or a state chartered institution, perhaps the equivalent of something like the British Royal Academy or Royal Society.

James Hoard

Hugh

A bit of a scandalous character, several of whose children followed his example, so you may want to hold on to this one. Although, I expect not all the stories will come out for quite a while.

Cheers,

James

Close up of above

Raz,

A wonderful collection of pictures.

Hope you didn't get into any trouble taking them.

Any idea what the badge with the ultramarine and white striped ribbon is? Presumably a Johor award of some kind?

Cheers,

Jamees

Indeed, very true Megan.

The actual meaning of the post on Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhon is that she invested the Crown Princess!

Although that picture may be new on the website, it actually dates from the time the present King was still Crown Prince. Consequently, he is wearing the sash and breast star of the most junior of the Tongan orders, the Order of King George Tupou I (he then only had the second class of the other orders). I gather that the order is more or less in the lapsed category. No awards were made in the recent Coronation list and no awards have been made at all since 1969.

"With respect to the Princess Royal vs. Crown Princess, the Thai title is "Princess Maha Chakri" (which I had forgotten). At present, I don't think anyone thinks that she will succeed the King, so the use of Princess Royal is more appropriate and in keeping with the British usage. Nonetheless, on the Thai Cabinet website (English), they list the medal as "Commemorative Medal on the Occasion of of H. R. H. Princess Sirindhorn's Investiture of Crown Princess". www.cabinet.thaigov.go.th/eng/d_Other4.htm"

Even if it does, it is clearly wrong as any reading of her Thai (actually Pali or Sanskrit) title suggests.

Whether the lowly bod who writes up their wesbsite is enirely conversant with protocol, regal language or the Thai consitution, is open to question. In my experience, website editors are not always the most knowledgeable folk on these subjects. Howlers abound wherever one looks.

Cheers,

Jamees

MALAYSIA-SARAWAK - Datuk Patinggi Bintang Kenyalang (DP), 1st Class, Darjah Utama Yang Amat Mulia Bintang Kenyalang Sarawak (The Most Eminent Order of the Most Esteemed Star of Kenyalang Sarawak), Shoulder Sash with badge and star, old style, Mint Alan Tan, Singapore, 5/91

Simply wonderful Hugh, thanks again for posting.

I was wondering what the first one was, having never seen it before.

Cheers,

James

Interesting. Thanks, James!

My please.

Slightly more detail as follows:

The insignia of a Knight Grand Cross or first class is a collar and breast star. The collar badge is similar to the device on the star.

The insignia of a Grand Cross of second class is an eight-pointed faceted silver star, all four poins of equal length and size. Superimposed on the star is a large silver badge enamelled in deep blue with white enamelled edges. The centre of the badge appears to have a bust of Queen Salote on a circular disk, either enamelled in red or gold on a red enamelled field. The badge is similar to the badge on the breast star, and is worn suspended from a sky blue ribbon worn over the right shoulder.

The third class or Commander insignia is a blue and white enamelled badge similar to the Grand Cross, but smaller, and worn around the neck from a sky blue neck ribbon.

The fourth class or Member wears a badge similar to Commander, but smaller, worn from a medal ribbon on the left chest.

A commemorative Coronation Medal was also instituted on the same day, 31st July 2008.

Christopher Buyers has a little more and a small picture of the new order at the Royal Ark website:

http://www.royalark.net/Tonga/tongders.htm

Cheers,

James

Hello Alex,

Sorry, but I know not how these things were funded.

However, in Warren's day one usually had to purchase the insignia for the orders one received. There are reports of many people refusing to accept awards because they simply could not afford the cost. So one probably had to pay for the uniform too.

In more recent times I know that diplomats receive clothing allowances.

Cheers,

James

As part of the celebrations for the King's Coronation, a new order was founded by King George Tupou V on 31st July 2008.

The Most Illustrious Order of Queen Salote Tupou III has four classes - Knight Grand Cross, Grand Cross, Commander and Member. The Grand Master is the King's cousin, HRH Princess Mele Siu?ilikutapu. The breast star is a little like the Grand Cross breast star of the British Royal Victorian Order - eight pointed star, each point arm of equal length, with a white enamelled Maltese cross, red enamelled centre and gold raised band surround. The badge is a gold Maltese cross enamelled in bright blue with white edges, a device in the centre and a gold crown atop the high arm of the cross attached to a suspension loop. The ribbon is light blue, similar to the Swedish Seraphim, and the Grand Cross sash worn over the right shoulder.

In keeping with the King's more democratic aspirations, a number of awards were made to Tongan citizens on the eve of the Coronation. Although Tonga has had several other orders for very many years, until now their distribution amongst citizens has been extremely limited. Generally orders were limited to very senior royals and perhaps a minister or two in a generation. Medals were instituted during the reign of the late King and were more widely distributed. The situation in Tonga regarding awards has, until now, been similar to Sweden since the 1970's.

http://www.pmo.gov.to/index.php?option=com...6&Itemid=29

James Hoard

Hi Hugh,

Indeed, there was a great deal of speculation at the time and a new law was even introduced. This allowed for the possibility of a daughter of a king succeeding in the absence of a named heir. However, even that did and could not have actually affected anything. Vajiralankara [Vajiralongkorn] had already been named as heir apparent and formally invested as Crown Prince. As indeed your post of his medal confirms.

Cheers

James

Hi James for the link, already found that one, btw I assume that they no longer wear these types of civil uniforms?

regards

Alex

Since Courts were abandoned more than 60 years ago the opportunities to wear them are slim. Besides which, the cost must now be astronomical.

From time to time one sees some British Ambassador to another monarchy or a Lieutenant-Governor in Canada wearing one. The courts of Denmark or Thailand seem to go in for gala uniforms and very formal events, so the British Ambassador tends to wear his there.

A few years ago I saw Lord Steel, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats in the UK, wearing his as a Privy Councillor. Alas, I cannot remember what the function was.

The uniform is really the civil court uniform (dark blue), but without cuffs and trouser legs one cannot be sure of which class. It was worn by a variety of civil government employees, e.g. governors, ambassadors, privy councillors, and so on.

Here is a link to a shart online biography for Warren

http://www.pef.org.uk/Pages/People/Warren.htm

He also seems to have been prominent in masonic circles.

Cheers,

James

THAILAND ? Appointment of Princess Sirindhorn (Maha Chakri) as Crown Princess

Good morning Hugh,

Once again a wonderful array of posts. Thanks for sharing them with us.

Just a small correction about the use of "Crown Princess" for this lady. This is a great mistake of understanding regarding her status. Her Thai title is closer to Princess Royal, not Crown Princess:

Somdetch Brhat Devaratna Rajasuda Chao Fa Siam Parama Raja Kumari

The last four words meaning Supreme Princess of Siam.

The Crown Prince has titles an arm-length long:

Somdetch Brhat Parama Urasadhiraja Chao Fa Siam Mangkuta Raja Kumara (Somdej Phraborom Orasathiraj Siam Mongkut Rajakumarn) where Siam Mangkuta Raja Kumara means Crown Prince of Siam.

Cheers,

James

Hello Hugh,

What a magnificent collection and what lovely pictures.

Many congratulations.

Cheers,

James

Hugh,

Actually my limit seems to be lower than 110 due to the level of my membership, so can I send them to you privately to your e-mail address? Cutting the images down to 70K would not do them justice.

Cheers,

James

Hugh,

I tried to upload scans of the Surakarta orders that I mentioned, but whatever I did they came out too large and were not accepted.

I am obviously doing something wrong so shall work on it a little longer.

Cheers,

James

I had hoped to avoid such attacks by posting here, rather than in the "British" section. It seems I was wrong and I now regret having posted.

Let me just say that I have worked in the records, in the archives in the UK and in India. This forum, does not permit footmnotes and references. I shall save these for a more extensive academic publication. But why bother here . . . .

Thanks, though, for the "Royal Ark" reference. When I last looked at his site he did not cover Bharatpur. (The site is now closed, however.)

Sorry, I do no want to labour this point or issue any more than I have done. However, when someone says that he knows nothing about someone, as you have done with Rao Raja Sahib, then labels him a 'hanger-on', that does not sound like the result of paintstaking research. It sounds like prejudice.

Here are the Malays. I'll be adding a gaggle of Philippino to this board. I'll do closeups / names if anyone wants one.

Hugh

Please do.

Some of these are totally unfamiliar to me, e.g. the first one in the top left corner.

Have you collected or done anything on the orders, decorations or medals of the sultanates and principalities of Indonesia? Surakarta still hands out decorations and several of the other sultanates used to have orders before independence. However, nobody seems to know anything about them. I have asked several knowledgeable authorities in Holland and trailed their archive catalogues, but drawn blanks everywhere.

Cheers,

James

Hi James,

It was probably NOT recommended for the King to travel during this time period, given what a prime "target" he would make. The trip to Canada and Newfoundland and probably the United States was likely as much political as anything. By that I mean it was prudent to "remind" us whose side we were on, not if but, when war broke out. That's not a slam at the Monarchy by any means nor a slight towards India, however, the need for American and Canadian support out weighed the risks, I think.

I've never heard the general opinion from India or Indians of that generation regarding the Monarchy of those times. I would be interested in their points of view. I'm sure it would differ from ours. I hope this is not taken as fuel for a topic that will be closed because it is too hot for the forum, it's just my thoughts on the subject, random and unorganized as my thoughts usually are.

Well, I suppose there is one statistic which should help dash a few myths. It is a pretty obvious one, but something like four million Indians swore allegience to the King Emperor during the Second World War, about three times the number as in the first.

One should always be a little careful about swallowing the "Congress Party" line of history. But even in their case, thirteen years into their post-independence government they were still employing a good many of the "hated imperialists" in a wide variedy of posts. Amongs them the highest organs of the new sate, the armed forces, judiciary, civil service, etc.

The Chief of Naval Staff as late as 1958 was Vice-Admiral Sir Sephen Carlill, his KBE in 1957 being recommended by the Indian government. Army officers were withdrawn by special order of the Attlee government when things got sticky between the two new dominions and they started fighting each other, British officers embarrasingly on both sides. But even there were numbers of senior offficers for several years, including people like Sir Harold Williams, again KBE recommended by Nehru. The last High Court Judge retired as late as 1971. This sort of service by subjects and servants of the former Imperial power, not only in India but throughout the former empire, must be unique in human history.

Cheers,

James

Two additional points:

1. George VI as stated above wanted to go to India in 1948 (or 1/1/1950, which is what most people in London thought would happen). I have it on personal witness that he was saddened not to go, nor be invited.

I believe the original planned date was in about May 1948.

2. Queen Mary's role as a "political wife" is worthy of historical review (as is the entire topic). See Kristin Zimmerman's work at Harvard and Cambridge. The "creation of social avenues" and political information gathering etc. etc. done by such ladies in the Victorian era was especially vital for a large number of male careers.

I might add in many situations it still is. Rarely today is a college president, upper level diplomatic post, British regimental CO. or private school Headmaster appointed without the spouse being closely scrutinized.

There is probably a good conference paper topic on Queen Mary's visit to India.

Queen Mary's own magnificent personal collection of photographs from her visits to India and also the Empire tour of 1901 was originally donated to the Royal Empire/Commonwealth Society Library. It is now at Cambridge and forms a fascinating and unrivalled pictorial record for scholars the world over. I think they have now put the material or discriptions online somewhere but cannot find the link anymore.

A wonderful post of information on the Durbar medals and gorgeous illustrations, for which very many grateful thanks.

BUT, must we have the glib, prejudiced and very frequently factually wrong pseudo political commentary?

"that while the new King-Emperor George VI had never visited India, he had no particular personal inclination toward either international travel nor visiting India (his brother, after all, had had no fun at all while there)" - on the contrary Edward said he had a wonderful time, read his autobiography!

" that the international political situation -- especially in Europe in 1937/38 -- had reached a point when the foreign travel of the king was not a recommended act". Huh? He visited France, Canada, Newfoundland and the United States. In the last three cases, the first reigning king ever to do so.

George VI himself wanted very much to visit India in 1948 and grant the instruments of independence in person, according to the original timetable for that event. However, some powers by be, primarily Mountbatten (and those stirred up by him) had different plans, brininging forward the date for independence by several months and wanting the grandstanding all to himself.

The "racial superiority" you talk about above is utterly mistaken as far as both Victoria and Edward VII are concerned. Neither had a racist bone in their bodies, as is amply demonstrated by both their public behaviour and private writing.

George V did not go to his coronation in India. He was crowned in London at Wesminster Abbey on 22nd June 1911. The durbars in 1903 and 1911 were held to mark or celebrate the coronations. The crowns that were made for the Delhi event were not to "crown" the king but was necessary because it was found to be illegal to take the actual crown away from British shores.

Queen Mary wasn't simply "brought along", she was part and parcel of the team. They often divided up the visits to some of the ruling princes, the King taking some on his own, while the Queen took others. They were both took a deep interest in and had a very great affection for India and Indians. Both having life long friendships with Indians they had met during their three exhausting trips there. One the of the very last letters written by Queen Mary was to just such an Indian friend, writing in 1953 after that country had become independent and a republic that "when they open me up they will find the word INDIA carved upon my heart".

Rao Raja Jugal Saran Singh is identifiable at http://www.4dw.net/royalark/India/bharat3.htm

There is one comment I would like to add on the status of King Michael, and by implication, his order.

His official position in Romania is very different from that of other former monarchs of oher lands. He is officially recognised as a former Head of State and is accorded the rank, status and priviledges of a former Head of State. He is even addressed as His Majesty and King Michael and his wife as Her Majesty and Queen. Royal forms of address are used for his children and son-in-law.

One more medal to report. This one apparently ranks after the Drakpoi Khorlo:

Druk Zhung Thuksey: instituted sometime before 1969 as a meritorious service medal and awarded for both military and civil services to the state (post nominal=DZK).