James Hoard

Glen,

I found this example of a kapitein ter zee from the 1930s in tropical whites, which may help a little more. This picture of the later Vice-Admiral H. Ferwerda (1885-1942), Commandant of the ZeemachtNederlandsch Indië 1936-1939.

My guess is that your man may be MN rather than the Royal Netherlands Navy as there are differences in the shortness of the anchor in the cap badge, the dark surround at the top of the badge, as well as the two marks on either side of the circular stylized knot on the shoulder boards. Anyway, just my observations.

Cheers.

James

As Countess Armfelt's CVO wearing instructions insert shows, the insignia was NOT returnable upon the death of the recipient. RVO insignia may have been returnable in earlier days, but by the time this award was made, likely the latter second half of the 20th century, apparently that requirement was obsolete. Does anyone know when the return rule was changed?

As far as I am aware, RVO insignia were returnable only on promotion to a higher grade.

From the outset, the order was largely conferred on foreigners. The return of insignia on the death of holders would have required a major logistical operation, quite beyond the capabilities of the Foreign Office and Consular Service, and thus never even considered. In fact, expensive components of a Knight Grand Cross, as was usual in other British orders (e.g. collars), were avoided for the same reason - recovery would be difficult. Collars only came in very much later, when the number of appointments of foreigners to the order were drastically cut back. Even then, they were not usually conferred on foreign GCVOs except in very rare instances.

At the very least, when a noblemen of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries took service in foreign armies, he did not wonder about on his own or do his own laundry. He normally took someone 'to do the laundry' for him. Not to mention the very many other servants and followers who would normally accompany him. Very many such gentlemen also brought bands of recruits with them, if not actively recruited for their units amongst the clans back home.

I think the chances are far more likely that people of a more humble station in life would settle down where they were. Compared with noblemen who tended to wonder more wide afield and take service under more than one foreign ruler, or ultimately retire back to Scotland when their career was done.

Cheers,

James

Gentlemen,

I must say I am a little surprised by this thread and the surprise at the nationality of a supposed Swede with a British surname.

Mr Bown may actually belong to a family of Scots long settled in Sweden, who took military service there during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Whilst over the years many of these families may have changed the spellings of their names, so as to make them virtually unrecognizable to the average Scot, there still remain in Sweden Hamiltons, Douglases, Gordons, Bennetts and Montgomeries aplenty!

Anyone with a knowledge of Swedish military history must surely know of Field Marshal Count Douglas. Or, more recently of Lieutenant-General Charles Malcolm Murray who was (I think?) Chief of Staff in the learly 1970s. Interestingly, the latter was serving as Head of the King's Military Household and accompanied him during his State Visit to the UK, which took place in Edinburgh instead of London, in 1975.

Cheers,

James

I have read with interest this string.

I have a title badge and would be interested in researching it further. I understand from above that there were annual list of awards produced and these are in the British Library. Otherwise it it an extensive exercise of trawling the Gazette of India or the home province. Are these searchable online or is this a trip to the National Record Office or British Library?

In the passages above the abreviations "F&P 94-H/1931" and "PSV 42-H/1943:" are used. What do they repesent?

Hello Michael,

I am afraid there is nothing on-line. You will have to do some donkey work trawling through files and records.

If you know the approximate date and the province, the easiest thing is to go down to the British Library at St Pancras or the National Archives in Kew and look through the provincial gazettes. These are a lot easier to handle than the mighty India Gazette with all its various confusing sections and sub sections.

"F&P 94-H/1931" is a reference to the file. "F&P" being the "Foreign and Political Department" of the Government of India; "H" being "Honours"; 94 is the file number and 1931 the year. So what this all means is that this was the 94th file opened by the Foreign and Political Department in the year 1931 concerning Honours and Awards.

"PSV 42-H/1943" means 42nd file opened by the Private Secretary to the Viceroy in 1943 concerning Honours and Awards.

These are the references that would appear written by hand on the front of the file. However, the British Library reference numbers are very different and I am not entirely sure why they have not been used. The researcher would have used the BL reference numbers to find and call up the files in the first place. It makes tracing them a lot more difficult and one would need to take the additional step of having to go through a conversion chart to trace the BL number.

Cheers,

James

Nice to see.

What is also interesting is the continuation of awards, long after South Africa had become a republic and been evicted from the Commonwealth.

Cheers,

James H

My thanks to E. Halleux for pointing me to Tony McClenaghan's book, "Indian Princely Medals", which lists this as the Shaktimat Order of Jhalavada, first class breast star, from the Indian state of Dhrangadhra.

I believe that the breast star pictured above is the second class.

The first class is in gold, and the centre of the circular medallion is is not enamelled, instead it has plain straight gold rays radiating outward like a sun-burst.

This from a booklet that the late Maharaja sent me about three years before he died.

Cheers,

James Hoard

Rostyslav wrote: "This is the only possible variant?"

Realizing that I may be out of my depth here, the Royal Victorian Order, being a personal gift of the Sovereign, is probably a highly controlled item regarding the quality of manufacture. A "variant", which I would take to mean like a privately purchased insignia, would not be authorized if it gave the impression that it was a higher class than the one officially presented. So it would not be permitted have embellishments to "upgrade" its appearance over a standard presentation insignia.

I have conclusively discovered that there were NO inter-war awards of the Royal Victorian Order to Germans. However let us look at the picture the subject is certainly not in his first flush of youth and could quite likely be in his 50's. The pictue looks as though it is pre-WWII. Also I notice that after his EK he is wearing the Order of Hohenzollern (possibly the Princeley Order). Now look in the pre-war awards there is one which sticks out. Prince of Wales visit to Sigmaringen on the marriage of King Manoel of Portugal, September 1913, where and MVO 4th class was awarded to Captain Fritz Wehr, Baron von Schonau, 8th Gendarmerie Brigade. He would have been late twenties -early thirties at the time which would fit in with the time scale of the photo.

All the best,

Paul

Paul,

This isn't entirely correct. The Duke of Coburg was granted special permission to resume wearing his GCVO in 1932. Of course the poor fellow then blotted his copybook a second time and was stripped of the award again in 1940.

Baron von Frankenstien, the former Austrian Ambassador, was made Honorary GCVO immediately after his post dissappeared in 1937 and he went to take leave of King George VI. Technically, he was by then a German subject. He became a British Subject in 1938 and was then transformed into Sir George Frankenstein.

All enemy subjects were stripped of their British awards in WWI and WWW II, so no German was officially entitled to wear them without a new special permission.

The decoration in the picture is quite obviously a privately made version. The central medallion should be closer to round, not such a vertically elongated oval. The motto should be gold on a dark blue enamel border, rather than white. Lastly, the Honorary MVO 4th class, unlike the version for British Subjects, came with a ribbon rosette to distinguish it from the 5th class.

Cheers

James Hoard

_{James and colleagues,}

_{The mystery deepens - the incscription is quite clearly Arabic and formally written with all the lesser vowel signs included. If it is of pre-Great War manufacture then I still believe that it has some form of Egyptian connection but of course cannot prove this. In 1911/12 the Khedive instituted a Bravery Medal to complement the service medal instituted by Egypt. It may be that he was also considering the instituton of an Egyptian Order - the three Orders of the Egyptian monarchy were instituted by Sultan Hussein Kamel in 1915 - Mohammed Ali, Ismail and Nile. As Sultan he had also earlier instituted the Order of the Felaha (Peasant/Agricultural Worker). The style of the medal has though a decidedly Ottoman feel to it.}

_Regards,

_Owain

Dear Owain,

I don't know if the breast star is of pre-war manufacture. What I meant was the breat star was classic pre-1918 German design.

If it were a decoration instituted by the Khedive, why would it say anything about Arabs? The Khedevial family were of Albano-Turkish origin and the whole Egyptian ruling class were Turkish in cultre and sentiment. They turned their backs on what they considered as backward Arabs. They even spelled their names in the Turkish or French fashion. After all, wasn't the whole point of the 1952 revolution to throw out this so-called "alien", non-Arab ruling class.

Perhaps I would look elsewhere than Egypt. Hijaz under Ali Haidar, Yemen, or even Lahej.

Cheers,

James

I am afraid that I have to agree with everything that 922F says.

The unknown decoration has nothing to do with Johore.

The design of the insignia of the Order of the Crown of Johore and ribbon colors have remained virtually unchanged since inception.

The Herman Historia description needs to be taken "cum grano salis".

Quite apart from the difference in design, difference in ribbon colours, and the fact that there never was a "Grand Officer" class, the transliteration of the motto given by Owain of "Al Kawkab Al Ahmer Al Arabi" (The Red Star of the Arabs) makes it completely unlikely.

The only thing we can say is that the designer of the badge of the unknown decoration must have been familiar with the Johore order. The breast star, of course, is in the classic pre-WWI "Germanic" shape, quite unlike the shape of the badge.

Cheers,

James

Owain,

While cleaning out some of my old files, this is what I found.

Unfortunately, I have not kept a record of which sale or vendor it came from. But obviously this is the badge of the same decoration.

What I do notice is that the shape of the badge is very much like the Johore Order of the Crown third class (SMJ). So the person designing this one must have been very familiar with the Johore order.

Cheers,

James

Hello members!

I have these pictures of Turkish princes whose awards I am trying to identify, and would appreciate help in completing the task.

Prince Osman Fuad

I can work out the following awards -

Is anyone able to identify any of the others?

With sincere thanks

James Hoard

Hello Ed_Haynes,

Thanks a lot for sharing the pics and the information about the title badges.

However, i have a query.. from where did you get the information to do further research about the person the badges were awarded to?

I have a Rai Bahadur badge but i find it now impossible to look for more information regarding the person it was awarded.

Rishi,

Do you have an actual name or location (i.e. the pre-1947 province he lived in) ?

How did you come by your decoration?

If you have a name, then you can look through the India Gazette and the gazette of the province your man lived in 1911-1947. Although I think the last awards were actually in 1946.

There are also annual lists for each grade, but these will be very hard to find anywhere except the archives. The India Office records in the British Library have a few. but not a complete set.

Cheers,

James

Dear Xtender,

A similar piece, if not this one, was offered for sale in recent years by Kuenker. The Arabic reads as "Al Kawkab Al Ahmer Al Arabi" which could translate as "The Arab Red Star". I am of the belief, from a little research and some supposition, the arms are that of the Khedive of Egypt and I believe that the order and a medal was instituted by Khedive Abbas Hilmi, possibly after his deposition by the British in 1912, whereupon he went into exile in Constantinople. As the breast star was manufactured by Rothe in Vienna I suspect that the Constantinople post-1912 theory has some substance, as the Ottomans were in league with the central powers. Regrettably I have no documentary evidence to support my theory.

Owain,

I am sorry to run counter to your theory but I do not think this has anything to do with Abbas Hilmi.

While the three silver crescents on a red field do resemble the Khedivial arms before 1914, the latter actually had little five-pointed silver stars between the points of each of the crescents. See http://www.flickr.com/photos/kelisli/with/462467746/

Besides which, Abbas Hilmi was living in Istanbul under the very nose of his sovereign and fons honorum, the Turkish Sultan. So I doubt very much if he would have instituted any decorations himself. The reference to anything particularly Arab would also not be in keeping with loyalty to the Ottoman Empire.

By the way, Abbas Hilmi was not actually deposed in 1912. At the outbreak of the Great War in 1914, he found himself recouperating from an operation in his own yali at Istanbul. He thus had little option but to declare his loyalty to the Turkish sovereign. So the British, then in Egypt, deposed him in absentia.

Cheers,

James

Hello Gentlemen, some 3 days ago,someone send me that picture from Jakarta. But I don't know what it is.

Clearly it's Surakarta Sultanate with Cypher of Pakubuono X.

But I don't even have a clear idea how big this badge is ?

If Windu,or anyone else can help,he's most welcome.

Emmanuel

Hello Emmanuel.

Once again a very interesting posting from you.

Purely my speculation but could this be the Bintang Sri Nugraha (The Star of Honour)?

I have never seen the actual decoration myself or come across even an illustration. However, going by its history and the appearance of two pujung between the arms of the star, I suspect this may be it.

Instituted by Susuhanan Prabhu Sri Paku Buwana X 16^th September 1904 in substitution for the award of the Pujung Sri Nugraha (Umbrella of Honour) to two Dutch citizens on 8^th April 1900 after the Dutch authorities objected to the “insult” of such an award to white Europeans.

The decoration was conferred in five classes:

- 1. First Class or Bintang Sri Nugraha Pangkat I,

- 2. Second Class or Bintang Sri Nugraha Pangkat II,

- 3. Third Class or Bintang Sri Nugraha Pangkat III,

- 4. Fourth Class in bronze or Medali Sri Nugraha Pangkat IV,

- 5. Fourth Class in copper or Medali Sri Nugraha Pangkat V.

U

sually reserved for kraton officials and state servants. According to the regulations of 8^th August 1907, recipients of the first three classes were entitled to state umbrellas.

My further guess would be that your example is either the first or second class.

Cheers,

James

Hello Gentlemen, here is a group of Surakarta ODM now for sale in Jakarta. The large size miss the Order of Loyalty, and on the small side there is the Gusti Raden Medal.

Emmanuel

Dear Emmanuel

Many thanks for posting these.

They are both very useful for confirming the order of precedence between the decorations.

I do not know what has happened to my earlier post, but I had stated that the earlier decoration you posted was indeed the Golden Jubilee Medal of PB XII. The dates are according to the Javanese calendar. He acceded on 20th Jamadilakir 1876 JE (or 1st April 1945 AD) and celebrated his fiftieth anniversary on 20th Jamadilakir 1926 JE (or 5th December 1993 AD).

PBXII received the following orders and decorations:

- Bintang Satya Lencara Pahlawan Gerilya (28.10.1995)

- Bintang Dharma Jaya

- Bintang Satya Lencana Perang Kemerdekaan I

- Bintang Satya Lencana Perang Kemerdekaan II

- KGC of the Order of Orange-Nassau of the Netherlands (21.8.1995)

- DK of Negri Sembilan (20.7.2001)

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

James

Bkoern,

I also hope you will not forget the various members of the Danish Royal Family and their appointments in the British Armed Forces. The long association with the Buffs, from Prince George of Denmark at the turn of the eighteenth century (perhaps the only person ever to have borne the rank of Generalissimo) down to his namesake Prince Georg of Denmark during the 1970s, and not to be forgotten Her present Majesty!

Cheers,

James

Bjoern,

You may be interested in following up on this interesting fellow:

Anker Rentse

Birth: Jun. 21, 1895, Denmark

Death: Aug. 25, 1950, Kelantan, Malaysia

A Danish national, he went at a young age to work on a plantation in Malaya. In 1927 he settled in the Kelantan Sultanate and in 1933 was appointed Irrigation Officer, a position he held until the Japanese invasion. He previously held the rank of Captain in the British Army Intelligence Corps and served in Calcutta, India during World War II. He was the Civil Affairs Officer for Kelantan in 1945. At the time of his death, he was the land development officer for Kelantan.

Mr. Rentse had an avid interest in the history, people and cultures of Malaya and wrote numerous scholarly books and articles during his lifetime.

In October 1949, he received the United States of America Medal of Freedom with Bronze Palm in recognition of distinguished service in the cause of the Allies.

He was a passenger on RAF Dakota KN630 when it crashed deep in the Malaysian jungle near Kampung Jendera in Gua Musang, killing eight British servicemen and three Malaysian civilians. The crash happened when the country was struggling with communist insurgents, a period known as the Malayan Emergency (1948-60), when British, Commonwealth and other security forces in Malaya fought the insurgents. Due to the rugged terrain and risk of attack for the rescue party, the 12 were buried in a shallow grave near the aircraft wreckage. Their remains were recovered in 2008 and after identification through DNA analysis, were reburied on March 15, 2012 at the Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery in Cheras.

The Britons who perished were identified as RAF crew pilot Lt Edward Robert Talbot, navigator Sgt Geoffrey Carpenter, and signaller Sgt Thomas O'Toole DFM. The Royal Army Service Corps air despatchers were Cpl Philip Bryant, and drivers Pte Peter Taylor, Pte Roy Wilson and Pte Oliver Goldsmith along with army officer Major John Proctor. The Malaysians were police constable Mohammed Abdul Jalil, civilian Yaacob Mamat and an Orang Asli guide, Saiap Alais Sherda, from the Sakai tribe.

Burial: Kuala Lumpur (Cheras Road) Civil Cemetery

Created by: Milou

Record added: Mar 19, 2012

Find A Grave Memorial# 87067269

Despite the article, Rentse actually retired as a Major in the Indian Army.

Cheers,

James

Nasser-al-Din Shah in his diaries usually adds either title, or status or a name after Navvab: Navvab the Grand Duke, Navvab Prince, Navvab the Heir-Apparent, Navvab Nazim...

"Wrong, as per usual." - Bla-bla-bla:)

Are we discussing Nasir ud-din's diary or are we discussing this particular firman?

You are free to post the specific parts of his diary and we can blah-blah about that when the time comes.

There is a purpose in the use of the word Nawab in this firman and it is quite interesting really. The Princess of Wales enjoyed her rank through marriage, not descent. The use of Nawab helps to do just that. Although it implies that her rank is derived by male-line descent it does so only in an oblique way. The alternative, if Nawab had not been used, would have been to use three additional words, Hazrat, Shahzadeh and Khanum. However, the drawback in using those terms is that one would not have simply implied that she derived her rank from her father, one would be explicitly saying so. The use of the generic term for the caste of princes, Navvab, avoids that.

Now, it may well be that Nasir ud-din does prefix foreign titles with the word Nawab. I can quite understand why he may want to do so. If he were writing a diary for a Persian readership, he may want to convey to his readers that the people he is talking about are of the same rank as their princes. They may be unfamiliar as to what sort of animal a Grand Duke or Archduke or a Margrave may be. Just as an English writer of an earlier time may have wanted to convey to his own unknowing fellow countrymen that a Shahzada, a Shinn-O or a Phra Ong Chao was a Prince, an Imperial or a Royal Highness.

"navvab-e 'aliyye-e a'aliyye", which is translated as "Her Imperial Highness Princess"

No, because European "prinses" added as a separate word in this firman after the Persian construction: "navvab-e 'aliyye-e a'aliyye prinses d.gal".

Please, read the text in firman again and again and again and aga...

But anyone is welcomed to translate Navvab as His/Her Imperial Highness here.

Wrong, as per usual.

The navvab tells one that it is a prince or princess. The 'aliyye replaces vala which is used for males, and so informs one that it is a female. The a'aliyye tells you she is of the first rank of princess (Imperial Highness), as opposed to 'aliyye aghdas (second rank or Royal Highness) or simply 'aliyye (third rank or plain Highness).

Princesse de Galles is a quite separate TERRITORIAL designation.

Ultimum refugium!

Absolutely hilarious because it is a load of missunderstood gobbledegook.

The Hijra calendar is a lunar calendar. The Jalali is solar. Jalali was used for mainly agricultural and revenue collection/administrative purposes because it was more in sink with the seasonal cylces. Completely different.

We are talking here about a firman from the year 1323 Hijri. When Pahlavi changed the official calendar in 1925, Jalali had only reached 1304!

PS: If anyone needs it - all the fragments of this firman seen:

به فضل و عنایت خداوند متعال

ما مظفّرالدین شاه قاجار

شاهنشاه کلّ ممالک ایران

خودمان درباره نوّاب علیه عالیه پرنسس دکال زوجه محترمه حضرت والا

مودت و یگانگی این دو دولت متعزّی الیها را باعطای [به اعطای] یک قطعه نشان محترم آفتاب

مکلل به الماس با حمایل مخصوص آن قرین ابتهاج فرمودیم که طراز سینه اعتبار خود فرمایند

فی شهر محرم الحرام ئیلان ئیل 1323

So, the phrase is actually navvab-e 'aliyye-e a'aliyye, which is translated as Her Imperial Highness Princess. The navvab tells one that it is a prince or princess. The 'aliyye replaces vala which is used for males, and so informs one that it is a female. The a'aliyye tells you she is of the first rank of princess (Imperial Highness), as opposed to 'aliyye aghdas (second rank or Royal Highness) or simply 'aliyye (third rank or plain Highness).

Cheers,

James.

"Now, what the dickens does it have to do with the Chinese year of the snake?"

You see, James, you'll make a greater progress if you read more books instead of posting more and more of your arrogant comments here.

Or just type in 'Chinese-Uighur animal calendar in Persia' in any search engine.

Or just read the first column here: http://www.jstor.org...id=70&uid=4&sid=559734

Or read this at least: "The form of this calendar used by Iranians combined features of the Chinese-Uighur original with those of the lunar Hejrī and Jalālī calendars. Furthermore, during the period of seven centuries in which this calendar was in use, from the Mongol invasion until 1304 Š./1925, certain additional modifications were made." (http://www.iranicaon...s/calendars#pt2)

Do you know only on March 31, 1925 the tradition to use Chinese names of the year was abandond by Reza Pahlavi?

Now tell us once again about exclusively "Hijra, not the Chinese".

Ask me once again about where do I get "princess" from, "since there is no word for princess in Persian".

Come on, James the Enlightener!

Go, Mr. Dickens!

Absolutely hilarious!

One more thing, dear James: you see, it was me who asked two Persian-speaking philologists to read these fragments and two Persian-reading historians to check the result (and then I asked Nick to translate it into English and to post it here just because Nick's English is someway better than mine). I've even learned from all these linguo-histo-guys that at the end of 19th century many European geographical names and European titles had become familiar to Persians (and were adopted in Persian language) through France. 'Prinses D[e]gal' in this firman is nothing but French "Princesse De Galles" for English "Princess of Wales". Ex. the same happened to Duc/Duchesse:دوک / دوشس

I don't think that after all the job done for me by these experts I do really need any 'transliterations' from the person who oops!ed to find and read 'prinses' in Persian letters in this firman.

And I don't think the way you've chosen to talk to me (with all that "absolutely overjoyed that you know it" and "what the dickens does it have to do with") really fits the first word in the name of this site. No, I don't think so. Deliberately not.

I am afriad I find this playing the brute and then the innocent quite hard to believe. You are being quite disingenuous as you frequently are. Attack, then play innocent when you are retorted and do not like the reply.

It is you who said "Dear James, please offer us YOUR OWN translation and explanation of these words from the firman". That is a specific, named, flagged, ask. Not quite the "I do not need transliterations" you now pretend.

I earlier gave the additional information that the year referred to the Hijra. Your immediate reply was so what, you know. That was a signal of peace and politeness, I suppose!

This is a forum to which all sorts of people come. Including people who do not know and want to learn. They may well not know that the year referred to was the Hijra, not the Chinese.

Cheers,

James

"But then where do you get "princess" from, since there is no word for princess in Persian?"

Dear friend, do you read Persian?

If yes, why can not you see the very words 'prinses D.Gal' yourself? Open your eyes - it is written in this firman exactly:

پرنسس د کال

(Handwritten "G" looks just like "K" in firman (گ instead of ک ) - that's why "D.gal" can be easily misread as "D.kal"; "D.gal" is a more correct version).

But if you don't read Persian, I just wonder what are you talking about here?

How can you criticize the translation of this firman's fragments without knowing Persian alphabet?

I don't know what you are talking about. I was responding to what was posted above, namely:

"We, Muzaffar ad-Din Shāh Kadzhar, Shāhanshāh of all Persia…

…to highly respected and highly honored (used the word close to french vénéré)

Nəvvab-Princess De Kal (i.e. Princess of Wales - Nəvvab (another variant “Nawab” or “Nabob”) is a prince or prince successor to the throne - this word was used because of her husband ) venerable wife of its Highness …

…to show friendship and unity between two governments are giving an award Aftab to bear it on the breast.

In Muharram al-haram 1323 (Chinese year of a snake) (i.e. March 1905)”

I see no Persian text, only the Romanized text quoted above.