James Hoard

but what about the missing devices? looks like theres a 2nd MM rosette and then MID and 8 army number!do any of the people have these? these devices would really narrow it down to a few people if not only one!!personally i think its a put together!

I have no idea if they had or did not have the devices that are not there!

I have listed some names which, if you are so inclined, you could investigate further.

I shall mark you down as a time waster and not bother next time.

Thanks for the correction - I was quoting from what JT had implied in what he had written in the article without having done any checks.

I've looked at your list of possible 'suspects' and still feel that most are unlikely because of the later campaign medals (Korea and GSM 1962) and the relative dates you give for the ISO awards. Also the fact that the chap has the MSM suggests to me that he probably left as a Warrant Officer. Therefore he is unlikely to have been able to enter the civil service and climb to the necessary grade to be eligible for the ISO (old Grade 7 and above). Plus as I mentioned in an earlier post the ISO is usually given after a fair number of years service (ie towards the end of a person's career).

Perhaps, but some of these fellows seems to have had interesting careers.

Mr Mallett, for example, joined the FO in 1937 and won his MM in the RAMC during the Second World War. Who knows, this may turn out to be his. He may have been one of those 'odd military types' found 'attached' to the FO and tend to turn up at the right place, at the right time, whenever there is local trouble afoot. Certainly the Order of St John at the end would fit with some sort of medical service.

As far as the ISO goes, the minimum required service period was 25 years and any statutory pensionable period in wartime service counted and was included.

Cheers,

James

2. Ribbon bar from Nepal

What is the awards on it?

My stab at this is as follows:

First row:

1 The Most Refulgent Order of the Star of Nepal (Nepal Taradish), 2 The Most Illustrious Order of the Three Divine Powers (Tri Shakti Patta).

Second row:

3 King Birendra Coronation Medal (Subha Rajyabhishek Padaka) 1975, 4 King Birendra Coronation Anniversary Medal (Laksha-Shedaka Padak) 1980?, 5 The Decoration of Nepal (Nepal Bhusana) 1966, 6 Foreign Service Medal (Paradesha Seva Padak) 1963.

Cheers,

James

I've been digging further in my old magazines etc. The OMRS published an article by John Tamplin in their Miscellany of Honours No 10 (published 1996).

John had done a study of the ISO / ISM between 1902 and 1994 and produced a whole range of statistics including awards of other medals.

Apparently there were 31 recipients of the MC with either the ISO (14) or ISM (17). Also there were 608 recipients of the MM with the ISM but none with the MM and ISO. So that would indicate that the ribbon bar is not correct unless possibly the ISM has been placed in the order where the ISO should be worn.

Those stats cannot be correct.

I maintain a running list of ISO appointments since inception and can count 10 recipients of the ISO who also held the MM. All the dates of appointment for the ISO are from 1948 onwards.

Given that some of the 10 recipients also other honours which do not appear in the bar, we can narrow down the suspects a little further:

Clarence Alvin Leembruggen, ISO, MM - 8.6.1950 (Fiji)

Percy Frederick George Robertson, ISO, MM - 31.5.1956 (Ministry of Health)

John Pembroke Steele, ISO, MM - 13.6.1957 (Australia)

Donald Victor Darwin, ISO, MM - 8.6.1963 (Australia)

Thomas Patrick Boyd, ISO, MM - 1.1.1972 (DHSS)

John Henry Mallett, ISO, MM - 14.6.1975 (Foreign Office)

Arthur Cyril Robson, ISO, MM - 1.1.1976 (MAFF)

Cheers,

James

I've been digging further in my old magazines etc. The OMRS published an article by John Tamplin in their Miscellany of Honours No 10 (published 1996).

Apparently there were 31 recipients of the MC with either the ISO (14) or ISM (17). Also there were 608 recipients of the MM with the ISM but none with the MM and ISO. So that would indicate that the ribbon bar is not correct unless possibly the ISM has been placed in the order where the ISO should be worn.

I am sorry to say that those statistics are incorrect.

I have a full list of ISO recipients since the inception of the order and have recorded ten recipients of the ISO who also received the MM. All the ISO appointments date from 1948 onwards.

Since some of the 10 also received other decorations that do not appear in the bar, we can probably narrow down the possible suspects further to:

8.6.1950 - Clarence Alvin Leembruggen, ISO, MM (Fiji)

31.5.1956 -

Enzo,

Many thanks for posting this image. A wonderful reference, so don't apologise for the quality. This isn't a photo competition site!

One thing new here is that the starts within the bunches of laurel are all studded with brilliants. There is no indication in the usual published manufacturer's mock-up illustration that they are, except perhaps for the central star in the badge suspension (??). Also, although the mock-up indicates that the linking eagles are red, the shape of them is very different in your actual collar as with the actual badge posted by Artan earlier.

Taking the above into consideration I feel that the illustration is probably no more than one of several initial manufacturer's proposal illustrations pre-dating production, rather than an illustration of an actual produced collar.

I think you may also be a little harsh on the plunderers. Counting the number of eagles and laurel sprays with diamond stars in the photograph of King Zog above, I came to 18. This has 24 and thus looks like they are all there. Also, given that the diamond stars all look intact, I doubt any greedy plunderer would have left them behind. More likely that the manufacturer's chain links were not very strong and have simply come apart during rough handling.

Thanks again.

James

Is this thread usefull:

http://www.ondersche...it=Soesoehoenan

Thank you all for your kind replies, especially Paul for the very useful list of manufacturers.

I have already taken up his suggestion and written to the curator at Het Loo.

Cheers,

James

Does anyone have a list of producers of Dutch medals and orders for the period ca 1900-1949?

For some time now, I have been trying to find information on the orders and decorations of the Dutch protected principalities and sultanaes in Indonesia during the period. Despite quite a lot of photographic evidence of unique decorations sported by such potentates, I have been insgularly unable to find any information about these decorations. Neither in Indoneisa monarchist groups nor medal collecting groups in Holland, or even publications, have I been able to find anything. So the last throw at the die is to see if I can contact those who would have normally produced decorations for the Dutch government, to see if they have any records of producing any for the local rulers in the Dutch East Indies.

With thanks,

James

Honor Collor of Albania, from the same book. I suspect (also based on the other thread) that this should be moved under the (or rather, on top of) Order of Scanderbeg. Any other thoughts?

I have the same feeling about this picture as the other poster regarding the Knights of Malta.

This also does not look "kosher" to me. Either a mock-up or a drawing. Quite apart from the differences from the collars worn by King Zog in contemporary photographs, here the 'eyelets' appear solid and. One cannot really hang anything through something solid. The entire reverse appears to be flat.

Cheers,

James Hoard

and this one ;

The sash and star are Nepalese - The Most Glorious Order of the Ojaswi Rajanya (Ojaswi Rajanyako Manapadvi).

Cheers

James

Basically Yes, yes and Yes - some were seconded to the Indian/Pakistani Army , some retired/resigned and a lot were taken across into the British Army

Ralph

I seem to remember that after the two nations went to war with each other, almost immediately after independence, the Atlee government asked that British officers be withdrawn from active combat positions. The idea that two Commonwealth countries could go to war, with the same King seconding officers from one to fight against each other technically for himself against himself, was something very few British politicians, army bods or legal experts had contemplated uptil then. Very soon, the only ones left were in other arms such as the Engineers, Service Corps, Signals, etc. A few in Gurkha regiments lasted longer. Though I do know of one senior officer in the Indian Army, a Major-General, who avoided recall by taking out Indian citizenship. He eventually retired as a Lieutenant-General in the late 1950's. He was surnamed Lentaigne or something similar.

Of course, they did last very much longer in the Air Force and the Navy. An Indian wasn't appointed Naval Chief until more than ten years after independence.

Cheers

James

It seems to me that what we have is a (Grand) Collar of (the Order of Scanderbeg) of (the Kingdom of) Albania being referred to by various implified names, not separate decorations.

Cheers,

James

Hi JC,

To me it's just the Iraq Order of Al-Rafidan !

You can see in the post Nr. #7 by Antonio Prieto the photo in which He wears the Military ribbon for this Order (last bottom row, the central red ribbon with 3 black stripes)

I don't think so.

It could be the Al-Rafidian only if the star suddenly morphs into a perfect circle round and its seven points turn into eight!

James

James. Thank you for your most courteous and informative reply. If you will excuse me now for a short while I will consult further the details which I referred to in my original post, plus anything else I can find which might clarify the situation.

It is a great pity I feel that neither Elvin or Tancred were able to provide illustrations of this particular device in their otherwise excellent early works. I notice you referred to the similarity with the Order of the Double dragon..which indeed I also did in my first post, and it seems Elvin was aware of this also from the vestige of the page in Rick's attachment. Have you any comments re the alternative title for the "Button" award, viz ; "Precious Star (Pao Hsing)" also mentioned in my first post ?

Hopefully I will get back to you shortly with the remaining details which I have..tho' not unfortunately any pictures. Regards Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I am very sorry to say that I do not know anything about te "Precious Star" award. As you say, without illustrations, it is difficult to say very much.

Cheers,

James

James. Oh dear..now I really am confused ! To which "writer" are you referring, Rick or Elvin (or me !) ?

Also, you seem to infer that these "buttons" served only as badges of rank for Imperial Officials. But, if this is so, what were these "Order of the Button" awards given to the four men of the 67th Regt in 1862 mentioned by Elvin (and incidently Tancred) ? Also I am aware of similar awards to the Royal Artillery and the Anglo Chinese Contingent. So, while I bow to your obvious superior knowledge in these matters, to say that I am now more confused than ever is an understatement ! Cheers Jeff

Jeff,

I meant Elvin.

Apart from all the confused jibberish about the buttons, please read again the bit under "Ruby Button". Ask yourself why would something called a "Ruby Button" have a red or blue crystal in the centre? No mention of a ruby anywhere in sight. Is he talking about a medal, a star or a badge? It is something different in every sentence. What "Imperial Arms of China"? There were none. The clawed dragon was the Imperial symbol, which one could possibly describe as a badge, but "Coat of Arms"? One needs supporters, a shield, etc, etc for those.

From the meagre descriptions of the other two items, it looks like he is talking about awards made by imperial officials or government agencies/ministries

rather than official imperial awards. Everyone from local generals to the ambassadors in London and Berlin gave out their own inscribed medals.

Please note that the grades of the Order of the Double Dragon were also denoted by crystals, jade, coral, sapphire's etc. So it could conceivably be that Elvin is really trying to describe these, but one cannot be sure.

I am afraid that I cannot comment on what I have not seen so cannot saying anything about the other soldiers from the 67th you mention. Although senior ranking foreign nationals in service with the admiralty, war office or Imperial Maritime Customs did receive such appointments, that was because they were mandarins themselves. I am thinking of the likes of Gordon of Khartoun and Sir Robert Hart. Alas, these folk were 'Gods'. It is highly unlikely that a simple soldier would be given anything like the ruby or coral button.

But do also keep in mind that whenever someone gets a foreign award, it is invariably termed "the highest" order/decoration/medal. A simple Chevalier of the Legion of Honour is invariably reported as having received "France's highest honour". Nobody ever says he got the lowest.

Cheers

James

From the ONLY reference I could find--unfortunately without illustration-- C.N. Elvin's 1892 "The Hand-Book of the Orders of Chivalry, War Medals & Crosses..."

it appears that this was not actually an Order but an assortment of similar looking local awards simply sharing certain design motifs. He refers to it here as an "Order" but Werlich did not. r

The writer is completely confused. There was no "Order of the Button".

Imperial court rank was symbolised by uniforms worn by all imperial officials (mandarins and military officers), their several classes were distinguished by an elaborate costume. As part of this, they wore a distinguishing girdle and cap with a peacock feather. At the top of the cap were "balls" called "buttons" with different sprecious materials denoting the rank of the wearer:

Princes not of the Imperial Family and 1^st class military and civil courtiers – ruby button

2^nd class – red coral

3^rd class – sapphire

4^th class – opaque stone

5^th class – transparent crystal

6^th class – jade

7^th class – embossed gold

8^th class – plain gold

9^th class – silver

Cheers,

James

Some comments regarding the identification:

First row: I am not aware that "torch" ribbon distinction mark was used in Ethiopia. Is it possibly palm?

Third row: German Order of Merit displays here star with 6 points in stead of 8 for the Special Class,Aztec Eagle is (for me) invisible (perhaps the last unidentified ribbon in the 2nd row is more likely Aztec Eagle?), between Tunisia and Czechoslovakia there is apparently Liberia Pioneers, not Ivory Coast, the unidentified item between Brazil and Holy Sepulchre looks like Korean thing (Taeguk in middle)second "unknown of sequence of three is Orthodox Crusaders of the Holy Sepulchre of the Greek Patriarchate of Jerusalem,;

Fourth row: Lion of Senegal is better choice than Leopard of Somalia, unknown item between Netherlands and Burma should be Order of St. Mark of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandra, and item between Morocco and Venezuela might be Rumanian (Communist)Star Order.

Dragomir

Many thanks for the identifications.

As regards palms and torches, palms were awarded for the St George Medal of War, Haile Selassie I Medal of War and the Menelik II Military Medals in Gold or Silver. For the three 1936-1941 Medal of the Campaign (or the Patriot Medal), Medal of the Patriots of the Interior (or the Underground Medal) and Medal of the Patriot Refugees (or the Exile Medal) they were torches, a special local type of reed whose name escapes me, which were tied up in little bundles and used for flaming torches

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2009/post-3236-125411810701.jpg.

The picture above shows the difference.

Cheers,

James

Najafcoins has a large collection of Orders from Iran..

Check them out

Lorenzo

Very true, but one has to be careful there because some of the decorations on offer are fakes.

For example, one set of insignia for offer is labelled "Iran Ghajar Order of Moghadas, Ghajar era's rarest order, Grand Cross Set with original Sash, Impossible Set to find". Of course it is impossible to find, because such a decoration does not exist. This set of insignia is a complete fantasy. There was no “Ghajar Order of Moghadas”.

The Nishan-i-Moqaddas (or The Sacred Decoration), was third class of the three class decoration known as the Nishan-i-Agdas (The Most Sacred Decoration), the first class having two grades. All classes came only as large breast decorations and all heavily bejewelled, the amount and value of jewels denoting the classes. No enamelled badges or breast stars for any grade.

Najafcoins have some of the lower grades of the actual order for sale lower down the page, but they have made a complete hash of identifying them by nonsensical labels such as “Order of the Lion and Sun, Military Division, superior grade of Aghdas (the most sacred), gold and diamond set badge”, etc. Indeed, all the different Qajar orders seem to be incorrectly labelled as Lion and Sun something or other.

Cheers

James

Is the last one on the fourth row perhaps an Iraqi order of al-rafidan??

I don't think so because the Rafidan badge is a star of of seven points. Also the white enamelled petals that appear between the points of the star, although rounded, do not appear to create a perfect circle as this does. My guess is that it is some South or Central American order.

Cheers

James

From a small item found in a box, it has brought some interesting information - and indeed, memories of a forgotten part of the old Empire. We occasionally get the African Service medals in, with Kenya Bar - that was mainly the Mau Mau. Have one now to a reserve chief inspector - I suppose they either joined the TF or the Police.

There's an interesting little book on the history of the regiment by Sir Guy Campbell, Bart, part of the Leo Cooper series, so it should be widely available.

Guy Campbell, The Charging Buffalo: A History of the Kenya Regiment, 1937-1963. Leo Cooper in assoc with Secker & Warburg, London, 1986. 9.5 x 6.25, ix + 180 pp, 30 mono photos, one map, bibliography, index, rolls of honour, list (incomplete) of former officers and other ranks.

Cheers,

James

Hugh,

Many, many thanks for uploading the picture.

For the benefit of the others, here is the list of the orders, decorations and medals that I can work out.

First row:

Sovereign's badge of the Orders of the Seal of Solomon, Queen of Sheba, Holy Trinity, Menelik II, and the Star of Ethiopia, St George Medal of War (with two palms), Haile Selassie I Medal of War (with three palms), Menelik II Military Medal in gold, Haile Selassie I Silver Medal, The Medal of the Campaign (or the Patriot Medal) with six torches, Medal of the Patriots of the Interior (or the Underground Medal) with five torches, Victory Star 1941, Medal of the Patriot Refugees (or the Exile Medal) with four torches, Scholarship Medal 1^st class, Commemorative Medal for the Korean War, Silver Jubilee Medal 1955, Haile Selassie I Medal for National Service.

Second row:

Medal of Military Merit 1^st class of Greece, GC of the Order of St Olav of Norway, Military Medal (Médaille Militaire) of France, British GCMG, GC of the Legion of Honour of France, Collar of Muhammad Ali of Egypt, KGC Military Order of Willem of the Netherlands, GC of the Order of the Tower & Sword of Portugal, KGC of the Civil Order of the Netherlands Lion, Collar of the Order of Merit of the Italian Republic, Chief Commander Legion of Merit of the USA, GC of the Order of the Redeemer of Greece, unknown, Collar of the Order of Pius IX of the Vatican, GC National Order of the Cedars of the Lebanon, British GCVO, Yugoslav Grand Star, unknown (riband of the Order of the House of Chakri of Thailand without badge?).

Third row:

unknown, GC Special Class of the Order of Merit of the FR of Germany, unknown (Collar of the Order of the Aztec Eagle of Mexico?), GC Order of Independence of Tunisia, GC National Order of the Ivory Coast, Order of the White Lion of Czechoslovakia 1^st class with collar, GC Leopold II of Belgium (should be Leopold military division received 1954), GC George I of Greece (civil, should be military), Commander GC of the Order of the Polar Star of Sweden, GC Southern Cross of Brazil, unknown, Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of the Vatican, GC Royal Order of Cambodia, unknown, unknown, unknown, GC Special Class of the Order of the Renaissance of Jordan, Knight of the Order of the Seraphim of Sweden, unknown.

Fourth row:

GC of the Order of the House of Orange of the Netherlands, Order of the Flag of the Hungarian PR 1^st class, Riband of the Three Orders of Portugal, GC Order of the Leopard of Somalia, GC extraordinary of the Lebanese Order of Merit, Grand Collar of the Order of Pahlavi of Iran, DMN of Malaysia, Knight of the Order of the White Eagle of Poland, GC National Order of Merit of Madagascar, GC National Order of Merit of Mauritania, Collar of the Order of the Chrysanthemum of Japan, KGC of the Order of Orange-Nassau of the Netherlands, unknown, Agga Maha Thiri Thudhamma of Burma, Collar of the Order of Muhammad of Morocco, unknown, Collar of the Order of Bust of the Liberator Simon Bolivar of Venezuela, GC of the Order of the Sun of Peru, unknown.

Any suggestions regarding the unidentified decorations or corrections to my identifications would be welcome.

Cheers

James

Hallo Mervyn. I believe the 3rd Battalion Kenya Rifles was formed from 3rd Bn The King's African Rifles in 1963. 5th Bn The King's African Rifles became 5th Bn Kenya Rifles. You might be interested in this 1964 TIME magazine article: http://www.time.com/...97079-2,00.html. This unrest was said to have inspired wonderful film Guns at Batasi (1964), starring Richard Attenborough and Jack Hawkins. However, the film was based on the 1962 novel The Siege of Battersea by Imjin veteran Robert Holles, who also wrote the screenplay. His novel was rather prescient. Your Kenya Rifles insignia appear to be early examples. The TIME article gives an insight into largely forgotten actions during the final stages of the disintegration of the British Empire in Africa.

The Kenya Rifles and the Kenya Regiment (TF) were entirely different units. The former is the successor unit to the Kenya raised regular battalions of the King's African Rifles.

The latter was a Territorial Force unit which originated as the Kenya Defence Force in 1928 and was formed into The Kenya Regiment (TF) in 1937. It was a part-time reserve force made up of European officers and other ranks, for local service and whose main purpose was to back-up the civilian power during periods of emergency. The regiment was expanded greatly during the Mau Mau uprising, with some regular officers and NCOs being seconded from British units. The regiment was disbanded just before independence in 1963.

Cheers

James

I have recently found a colour photograph of all the orders and decorations worn by Haile Selassie in the form of full size chest badges.

Alas, I cannot seem to attach the file because I keep being told that it is too big. It measures 604 x 453 and 801.6K.

Any solutions?

Cheers

James

Hi Alex,

It is not easy to find information about this order.

Besides in Persia it was made of other countries: France, Germany, Belgium, Russia...For the drawing of the central medallion, I believe that this is persian made, but I?m not sure.

This is a Grand Cross (civil division): 3 bands in the centrer and 8 arms.

If you find any information about the period of issue, please, make it know me

Best regards

The date is post 1872 since the central Lion and Sun device does not have the small Qajar crown above.

Cheers

James

Hello Alex,

The Order of the Lion and the Sun was instituted by Fat'h Ali Shah of the Qajar Dynasty in 1808 to honour foreign officials (later extended to Persians) who had rendered distinguished services to Persia. In 1925, under the

Pahlavi dynasty the Order continued as the Order of Homayoun with new insignia, though based on the Lion and Sun motif. (wikipedia)

That seems to be a little splash of the usual wikipedia eye-wash. There is no connection between the two orders at all. The Humayun was an entirely new order.

The Lion and Sun is a general national symbol of Iran and appears on all sorts of medals and devices. Just because they happen to do so does not mean they have any connection with the famous Qajar order. It usually means that the dealer may have heard of the L&S Order but hasn't got a clue as to what he has, so labels it as the Order of the L&S.

There are basically two versions of this medal, one where the lion in the center stands holding a sword and one were he just sits there. The standing Lion as a military award and the sitting lion as civilian award when it comes to the orders that were awarded to the foreigners. The awarding was not really that well structured, so many orders were awarded reverse specially, the ones that were awarded to other Iranians.

It should also be noted that in the civil division with reclining lion the face of the sun should be a female face. In the military division with the standing lion & sword the face is male.

These orders came in 3 different ray colors, black, red and green. The black was used at state and official funerals, the red was used for official celebration weddings and births of royal family children and the green

for all other occasions.

What is the source for this information? I have not seen this before and it sounds a little far-fetched. All the Iranian rescipients could not possibly have had three sets of insignia to wear on the different days. With the size of the Qajar Royal family and the fact that the men could marry as many wives as they liked, probably meant there were funerals, weddings and marriages on every day of the week.

The biggest question mark for me is still how to date them or at least narrow the time frame down????

Before 1856 the insignia was jewelled with different kinds of jewels depending on the division. 1856-1872 still a complicated system of classes and grades but the insignia were produced in polished silver; the lion having a small Qajar crown above (though this did not appear in insignia manufactured abroad). After 1872 simplified to five classes, the division between foreigners and nationals ceased and the small Qajar crosn above the L&S device no-longer appeared.

Cheers

James