StefanK.

Dear gentlemen, 

I‘ve been trying for weeks to respond to this interesting tread but didn‘t find time yet. I am sorry! Right now I just want to thank the contributors that this thread - that temporarily seemed to ger out of hand - found its way back to a scientific debate. That‘s great 👍🏼

greetings, Stefan

PS: in the meantime I found some new interesting details on the company Gebr. Resch that I will publish asap.

Hello Tomas,

I really would like to apologize because I don‘t want to create any „toxic environment“, as you stated. But after reading my contributions once more, I really do not know what to apologize for. You claimed something that was wrong and I clarified it by providing some official state records. No personal attacks, just facts. I think it is you that creates confusion and a toxic environment, because you claim things as if they were facts without providing any proofs. I really would like to see

1) the catalogues you are talking about

2) a watch or clock produced by Rothe

3) a watch or clock produced by Mayer.

You state that certain products of Resch „are not known“. What does that mean? Are they not known by Mr. Tomas or the entirety of the collectors-community of austro-hungarian medals and decorations? If the first case is true, I would kindly ask you to reconsider your expressions in a public forum and say „are not known by me“ in order not create any confusions. 

I agree, it is a serious forum. We should stick to the topics. So I ask you: Why are you approaching private conversations between you and me here in public? Is this what you call serious?

I am here to learn, to share and to know others with the same interests. So i want to come back to the topic and talk about the investigations I made about Resch: Itis quite easy to reveal that Resch produced before the date you stated (1864). Just look at the labels Resch used. The address Kohlmarkt 262 was used only until 1863/1864. Later the company moved to Kohlmarkt 8. Consequently the products/ cases that are labelled with „Kohlmarkt 262“ must date back before that year, between 1854 and 1863/1864.

greetings, Stefan

A sure fact is not the same as an empirical induction because the latter is always susceptible for wrong conclusions. So is your assertion that Resch was established only in 1864 - based on the "first" catalogue (how can someone say that a certain catalogue is the first, after 160 years?). Well, official austrian records reveal that the year I mentioned above is the real year of establishment of Gebrüder Resch.

PS: I personally doubt that Mayer or Rothe made watches.

3 hours ago, tifes said:

Other decorations from other orders "departments", including MMTO, of GB production are not known.

 

now you know one.

17 hours ago, tifes said:

Company was active in years 1864-1876.

That is not true. The company "Gebrüder Resch" was founded on March 1st 1854 by Lorenz Resch, who was a gold- and clocksmith, and his brother, Josef Resch. The procurator was Ludwig Wolf. The company was situated near the famous cafè Daum at Kohlmarkt 262 and moved to Kohlmarkt 8 in around 1863/1864. It is stated that the company made all of the famous orders of the monarchy and was listed as a Hofjuwelier. Josef Resch left the company in 1868. Lorenz Resch also founded a clock factory in Vienna in 1862 and moved to Ebensee afterwards, where he continued his business as a clock manufacturer. He died in 1872 at the age of 60. The clock manufactory was active until 1901 when it was sold to Junghans. In 1885 the factory produced around 12.000-15.000 clocks avery year.

Quote

Gebrueder Resch never made any MMTO, which is basically sure fact.

on what evidence is this claim based?

Ok I see. Would you mind showing eg a Leopoldorden? I would like to understand how the craftmanship of the pre 1918 pieces differs copared to the fattovich pieces. 

17 hours ago, Christian1962 said:

I am not an expert for MMTO. In my opinon the cross looks very nice, but the ribbon is definitly a new one.

 

The crosses were produced by Rothe until year 2000. I don´t know which hallmarks they used after 1922. I own some collectors copies which were made for the Fattovich collection in the 1960ties. As far as I remember these are not hallmarked in spite they are gold.

But I remember the words of a collector friend who always said "we have all hallmarks on stock..." when he had doubts regarding an expensive piece.

That is the most reason for me never purchasing a MMTO.

Regards

Christian

Hello Christian, do yu have pictures of how the Fattovich-pieces looked like?

What is your opinion on this piece? The piece weights 15.2g (with ribbon) and measures 30,2mm (width). Thanks in advance for your input. Greetings, Stefan

Very very nice, thank you for showing!

More precisely, the pieces you showed were tested for its gold content in Vienna between 1872 and 1922. As gold was quite precious during the war time, I‘d guess that the cups were made before 1914. Pictures of the cups can help to precise the production time. The gold content is 18kt or 750/1000

On 22/07/2020 at 16:57, GdC26 said:

Looks like a Austrian 750 silver mark to me, but the shape seems a bit weird. It may help if you post a pic showing the entire object.

What is the difference between 66 and 66a and from where did you take the picture? Thanks!

16 hours ago, Farkas said:

Gents,

would it make any sense for there to have been a previous mark scrubbed off this before it was stamped with the A??

 

 

I can’t help seeing (imagining 👀) lines and a box or something running left to right 👀

 

 

I’m also seeing (imagining) a first letter in the box...

👉 maybe R, W, A, H or F?

 

 

Stefan, Is there any chance of another picture of yours, if you have one without glare on that bit? Just to shut me up! 👍

 

cheers

tony 

 

There is no other marking or traces from a scrubbed one. Its just the photo and the fact that the surface is convex. Attached another photo.

Of course it shows the Diana's Head 2A along with a Rothe marking as well as the one for the Hauptmünzamt. I was just wondering if they were faked or used after 1922 to fool collectors because the piece that bears that markings could raise some questions.

Any opinions on this hallmarks? Note that the "A" has very straigt arms ("sans serif") instead of the usual serif font.

thanks in advance.

Thank you, that is very interesting. Only your last sentence confuses me. Does rhat mean that both medal in theory could also have been made in - let‘s say - in 1875? Or were you referring only to the maker‘s mark?

Going back to my MMThO: what makes you think that this piece was made by Rothe? I know two types of Rothe MMThO that are slightly different in size and design (the „WW1“ type and the „1866“ type). A third pattern, worn by Ernst August of Hannover, with straigth arms, could have been made by Rothe. All three are pictures in Ortner/Ludwigstorff. If my piece was made by Rothe, what sense does it have to change patterns of such a rare award so many times? 

10 hours ago, tifes said:

Difference between hallmark 60 and 61 is very slight. No 60 is for Hallmarking Office (Punzierungsamt) in Vienna and No 61 with "vertical line" (mit senkrechtem Strich) is for a Branch of Hallmarking Office (Filialpunzierungsamt) in Vienna I. This one was used from 1867 onwards but No 60 is very old one and was in use since 1807.

 

That lead us to 750 hallmark. There is no true that first hallmarking law was adopted just in January 1867. There were different regulations for hallmarking for different parts of Monarchy since 18th century. Bit messy and many small items like jewellery and orders were exempted. This changed with hallmark act of 1867 which unified the system for the whole Monarchy and introduced the obligation for all items to be hallmarked, even small ones made of precious metals. 750 is so-called "stock hallmark" (Vorratpunze) for 18k. gold pieces. In the hallmark act of 1867 it was stipulated that stocks of silver and gold items which had not yet been officially hallmarked were to be provided with a stock hallmark similar to the older regulations, provided that the precious metal content exceeded at least a quarter of the total value.This is why we see "750" hallmark sometimes alone, sometimes mixed with "new" hallmarks of 1867. So golden pieces made closely before or during the introduction of hallmark act 1867 plus some years on (like till 1870, still old stock used) could be seen with this stock hallmark of 750.       

Interesting, thank you very much! If a piece bears either a marking "before" 1867 and "after" does that mean that it was tested two times? See picture.

On the second picture one can see a 750 F.R piece. So that one should be around 1866/1867?

On 22/07/2020 at 16:57, GdC26 said:

Looks like a Austrian 750 silver mark to me, but the shape seems a bit weird. It may help if you post a pic showing the entire object.

What is the difference between 60 and 61? And until when was 750 used instead of the chamoise‘s head?

Hello Tomas, thank you for your input! Last year when I was in Prage, I tried to find the former location of Carl Lönharth (Zum Generalen Clam Gallas) but since the houses were re-numbered I was not sure if I found the right building. Undoubtfully it was located near the palace Clam Gallas. Enclosed I post two advertisements of that seller.

Enclosed you can see further pictures of the MMTO. It is made of gold and is unmarked. The case bears a retial marking of a dealer named Carl Lönhart of Prague, who dealt with orders, medals, uniform-ecquitpment and other stuff like loileteries. According the company registers it existed until 1870 but quite certaily it stopped active business in 1863 as it had economic problems. The company appears under the name "Zum General(en) Clam Gallas" in the late 1850's/early 1860's, mainly because of selling military stuff. Below the retail marking one can recognize an oval blue circle. In terms of color and appearance (see photo) it fits to the marking of Gebr. Resch that was used until 1863. Consequently the piece must be prior to that year.

According to the former owner the piece belonged to an officer who earned the MMTO in Solferino. According to my investigations his regiment was deployed in Prague after 1859 until the mid 1860's, so it is quite plausible that the man bought that piece directly from that retailer.

more photos.

Comparison of the Resch-markings:

The second photo from the Heeresgeschichtlichen Museum also shows the Resch marking below the retail marking, so it is prabably that Lönhart was supplied by Resch in general.

please let me know what you think about my investigations/ theses

Mssrs Rothe und Neffe existed for more than 150 Years. At a first step it is necessary to ask what you consider "original". If "original" means that this case was made by Rothe during that long period of time (until the 1990s) I would say maybe. If original means that the case was made by Rothe prior to 1918, I would say no. Actually Rothe made these double cases (You can see one in the Heeresgeschichtlichen Museum in Vienna) but it is much different to the one you show. Beside the leather-cover the case button is the most significant feature that leads me to that conclusion.

Greetings, Stefan

On 09/02/2023 at 00:26, graham said:

Great collection, thanks for showing. Military Order of Maria Theresa!!! Is it an original?

It should be! It is an unmarked piece from the late 1850s/early 1860s in a case of Gebr. Resch.

Dear gentlemen,

i have been a member of this forum for many years but I was never really active. I started to collect austro-hungarian empire some years ago and appreciate that the forum offers a section for people with an interest in that topic. I would like to contribute once in a while and stay in contact with people with similar interests. I am also always looking to add some new things to my collection.

Many greetings and have fun collecting,

Stefan

Awesome!