KM-SPAIN

Hello all, this plate is here in Spain and is supposed that was left in a port of the North of Spain by a German Ship or U-Boot during the war. Do you have any idea of what can it be?

Thanks in advance.

You have a very nice collection there Nesredep, congratulations and thanks for share it.

Very nice set Herv?, this is one of the KM collecting areas, the optics, that I have to go deeper.

Harrier, thanks again for your pictures and your feedbacks, I'm happy to see that we basically agree, and that is not always easy in the our collectors word.

Payton, as we have said a bad feeling by pictures not always is right, a hand inspection always is a need. Anyway I would like to see pictures of the inside.

Hi, Thank you Harrier for posting the pictures for me. This is the tunic which Iam hoping many of you out there could give your opinion on. It has all the earmarks of a Kriegsmarine tunic except the lower buttons are starting just below the pocket flap and their is no button holes on the lapels. Could it be just a tailors preference?

Payton, the general view of the tunic and the configuration look OK, the lower buttons row is not too low so could be only a tailor preference and the lack of the button holes in the lapels could be also by this, not usual but you can find. But to be honest with you if I have to decide ti buy this one, I'm not very confortable with it by the pictures, this kind of fabric doesn't like me for a KM reefer jacket and the back of the collar doesn't like me too much, but as told before with pictures is not easy.

I may be dead wrong, but here's what you get (in MY opinion) when you add an extra set of buttons to the lower area of a Bundesmarine tunic. (This photo was originally posted by Gordon from his trip to the fabulous Hamburg maritime museum.)

Harrier, thanks for the pictures, very interesting and a good investment to compare with other period tunics. I think that all of these tunics could be transformed to KM but you can detected with a hand inspection.

I agree with you about this tunic, from pictures not WW2 original IMO, but you need a deep hand inspection to be sure, all of us have seen many private variations in German uniforms, many against regulations, so with pictures is not easy to be sure. I had the same feeling with this set that I was thiking to buy some time ago, but finally I passed of it. Same configuration of buttons and without the lapel holes. IMO the worst is not the the last buttons row is very low, is that the space beetwen the last two rows is smaller than beetwen the others, and why?, maybe because is added to a postwar tunic and thay couldn't do it lower ... I don't know but I had a bad feeling with this one.

Ok, that would be also a good information. When you have your new tunic I would like to see it also.

Here mine without buttons and button holes in the lapels.

Harrier, as I told you are basically right, and the only with I do not 100% agree is about the lapels button holes, is not difficult to see period pictures in this way, but the usual is to find them. Until now I have not seen a good fake from a KM tunic, but here in Spain that is not easy.

I would like to see also your pictures of other countries made KM tunics.

The information from Harrier is basically correct, but I do not agree with all.

Most KM reefer tunics has the lapels buttons holes as the pair of buttons under the lapels, but is not rare to find tunics with this pair of buttons omitted and also without the lapels button holes (I have one). About the lower button row, usually is lined up with the he top of the lower side pockets, but as almost all officer reefer tunic were private made you can find some variations.

Naval tunic from other countries and times have different configuration as Harrier said but also different tress on the cuffs, so is not easy to fake a KM tunic. Anyway you can find KM tunics made in France or Denmark that are 100% original, so finally the way is your experience and feeling.

Hello Joe, finally you have taken it, congratulations, it really likes me, typical T&H construction and label from 1941. Where was I when this one was sold. :banger:

Gordon, great research, thanks for sharing.

Here the Marinesanit?tschule ribbon, together with another from the Marinelazarett Wilhelmshaven. In some cases with early ribbons, as with mine, you can find the Marinesanit?tschule ribbon with curious rarety, the holes from the Wilhelmshaven word embroidered and later removed. This happened because the use of the localitation of the school on the ribbon were not authorized as there was only a naval medical school.

Joe, you are abosolutly right, but Thiele's label is original IMO, same writing than in all others that I have seen from 1941. The badge from my picture is prior to 1939, so the quality of the embroiders is much better than in 1941,but I agree with you that this one is not the best that I have seen for this high quality maker. If you compare the badges in both war time pictures, divers emblems are very different in the helmet details, the neck, ... I know that the NVA divers badges are very similar to this one, but as the Thiele stores were captured by the soviets, is not possible that they copied the badge from the last Thiele models?

Joe, I really fdon't know but if the label is right, why to put it on a postwar badge, and how.

Thiele emblems.

Hi all, I followed also this badge on ebay, and bid for it. Joe IMO is a good one, and is well know that some years ago the store with the fabrication quality pieces from Thiele & Steinert were sold, and there were hundreds of KM badges, as from other army branches, with the tags, the envolopes, ... in mint condition. In the following picture you can see two of them from my collection.

About the divers badge IMO you can find slight differences depending the maker, as with most of the badges and emblems. Here you can see a diver embem from an original picture in my collection of a Panzerschiff crew man, and the pattern is different.

Hi John, I'm sure that is not difficult to open it to show the movement, but you have to do by the front side and take apart the dial, so I prefer do not touch it too much because I'm not sure how to do it. The watchmakers that repared it told me that it hs a Junhansmovement from the 20s and he asked to Junhans for some original pieces to repair it.

Hi, I have also seen many KM clock, and you are right about the dial, is rare. About the F-S is very usual in the german stopwatches and clocks movements, so IMO is not rare. The 99,9999999999% of the people don't know nothing about Fottentender Gazelle, so is almost impossible that nobody used it to faked a clock. When I told you that one of the best watchmakers of Spain repared it, I mean that he told me that for him it was original, even the dial.

I'm happy with it, but anyway thanks for our comments.

IMO is a original one, I found it many years ago in an antic shop and it was repaired by one of the best watchmakers of Spain. If this vessel was a pre-WW2 one, is normal than when she was renamed in 1939 the dial of the ship clock was covered with KM-new name. Anyway I know that is not the usual Km clock,but I had never hear about Gazelle bfore, and is difficult for me imagine that somebody make a fake of a vessel as rare as this one.

The dial looks like a hard lacquered press paper.

Well, I hope this will make you even happier with this nice clock (does it still run?)--

According to Erich Gr?ner, Peter Mickel, Franz Mrva, Dieter Jung, and Martin Maass, "German Warships 1815-1945, Volume 2: U-Boats and Mine Warfare Vessels" (1985 British translation of the German edition)--

"Gazelle" was originally the 1919 " M135," (renamed on 2 January 1939 from "Hela") and was renamed AGAIN on 1 October 1940-- so it was "Gazelle" for not quite 2 years!!!!-- to "M 535."

It served as a minesweeper for the rest of the war, and was kept on in the German Minesweeping Administration after the surrender in 1945. But on 8 February 1946 it was claimed by the Soviet Union as war reparations and became part of the Soviet Navy

renamed AGAIN as "Desna" and AGAIN in 1951 as "Venta." It was finally scrapped some time in the 1960s.

SIX names, TWO navies... and more than 40 years of service!

Hello all, I have found some pictures from a Gazelle crew man, and in some of the pictures you can see a sign dated in 1943, so how is this possible if the vessel was renamed in 1940?

This is the last addition to KA collection, ok not the last because I have taken recently the nice tunic showed by John before. This is a M42 tunic with a M43 trouser, M43 and M34 caps, camouflage M35 helmet, and all the equipment, gas mask, y-straps, ..... an all in nearly mint condition, a really great lot.

Hello nesredep, very interesting piece. I have seen the more usual LW ones but not a blue KM stamped one, thanks for sharing. If any time you want to sell or trade it please let me know .

Hello all, as Fernando has said I haver had this one in my hands, and IMO the construction and material looks ok. I have read also about opinions of Cobra maker marks and post war copies, and I think that this one, as others that I have seen, are different of the black marks on the plastic/celluloid shields of Janke copies. Is true that some caps have double shield stitching, but is this the norm, or only on some of them. With a private purchase sailor cap with a rare maker as is this one is so hard to say, one of mine is also a private purchase one, and I have only seen another in more than 15 years with same maker, and in mine the stamp is in gold and in the other was in silver. IMO is a good one, an also the tally, that is in artificial silk but WW2 original IMO.

More clear pictures of the inside to know more opinions.

I agree with Gordon, looks like a nice original issue sailor cap.

Jonh, the KM-KA officer used the same belt than the Heer ones, brown leather belt with silver buckle, the gold buckle was reserved to the Admirals. IMO the gold one with the RZM buckle is a political one and not KM, but is possible that an officer had one of this because the yellow-gold is the KM color, who knows.

Thanks, Eduardo. Please help me with this question: The officer collar tabs shown in #61 above have only one gold stripe in the centre, whereas the ones shown on the tunic have an additional gold portion at right angles on each end. What is the significance of this, please?

This only depends of the maker, usualy the the cord on the chapels (the vertical one) is in aluminium or the materiel that is made the litzens but in the KA is also very usual to find them with this in golden-yello branch cord.