Jim Maclean

Graeme, just a small correction, that's actually the Leander Class frigate HMS Diomede (F16). Eastbourne's Pennant No. was F73. I believe at the time of the Cod Wars Eastbourne was being used as a training ship for HMS Caledonia.Superb photo nonetheless.

Jim

I think your Coldstream Guards badge with a chain is the neck fastening for a cape, all you nneed to do now is find a badge with a hook to complete the set. Good luck.

Andy,

Those superb school badges are worthy of their own thread!

Sorry, my mistake. Everything is working

Hi Tony,

Very hard to say, but my first impressions are it looks OK.? My w/m is very strong and the edging gives alot of re-inforcement.? I notice yours is quite deeply stamped with the edging too.?? K & K only mention a w/m one.? Is your just dirty or it is a blackened one ? As for the spots, who knows.? Maybe it came from a different die.? I would think that with all the voiding this would be a very time consuming badge to make so maybe more than one manufacturer was involved, hence the two rather than three loops.? Does anyone know roughly how many a territorial battalion would need over six years of peacetime.

As a footnote when I bought mine it also came with a pair of matching collars and all three items had the red felt backing.

I'll re-scan mine on higher definition next week and send you the pics for comparision.

Keith

←

I think it's OK as well. Though not listed in K&K I don't think that they were infallable. There are quite a few totally genuine examples that are not listed. Perhaps had the internet been around when the books were written they would have been twice as thick. Sadly it wasn't, so when we see a badge like this we start to doubt it . 'Not a textbook example' but I don't see anything wrong.

The two small 'beads' I think are due to inclusions when the die was first made from the 'master' die. Examples will probably found with and without, what about the bigger one on the cross?

A badge I could live with.

Some pretty scarce badges there Andy, very nice. The S.D.F. is the Sudan Defence Force, again an unusual fastener. Still can't come up with a good explanation for that Military Police badge though.

I think that the RNR and RNVR did more than their fair share. Unique men doing some unique feats. I doubt we shall ever see their like again.

You're probably right in their being full time professional seamen. There is a page on the National Archives site which lists abbreviations of ranks. It would appear that the naming of RNR and RNVR personnel more closely followed the M.N. rather than the R.N. Ranks such as engineman, motorman, deckhand, trimmer etc.

I hadn't really thought about it much before but I know very little, if anything of the origins, history and structure of the RNR and RNVR. Time to do some searching.

Mossy

The button is that of the Manchester Regiment, 1902 at the very earliest due to the King's Crown.

Duh! Just looking back through the thread there's a damn good clue on the Tailor's label

Jim

Well, I'm thoroughly confused! This seems like a chain of command nightmare, with an inordinately convoluted cluster of positions where everyone would seem hard presseed to figure out who saluted whom first!

Not to further cloud an already murky issue, but do offical published regulations exist which give clear indications of precisely who would have been named to exactly which of these ranks-- for instance, Petty Officers with practical experience of ## years but "insufficient" classroom "knowledge" or.... ?????

The Germans resolved all these points during the Second War, just commissioning their former Petty and Warrant officers to specific "corps" of officers with standard ranks but distinctive insignias. During the First, such Weighty Matters as personal grooming and the table manners of one's wife (I kid thee not) were considered in their then-system of neither fish nor fowl Officer Deputies and Feldwebelleutnants. Idiotic "rules," but rules nonetheless!

THESE British ranks are about as clear as the Byzantine civil service!!!

←

It all sounds so difficult with so many different titles. The problem for us now is to put an actual rank to a title. At the time rank was denoted by the cuff lace, much as today. The trouble is matching the title to the actual rank.

Social class was also very much to the fore in the RN, surprise surprise, the reason that Engine Room senior rates had their own mess stemmed from their social ineptitude.

Just so as not to further confuse issues, all the WOs shown in the photo are the same rank. The ring merely denotes 10 years seniority in the rank. A half inch ring would denote CWO and would be senior to those shown

Look at this Rick, seems easy to me http://byzantium.seashell.net.nz/articlema...=mtp_bureacracy

Bit of info from the web on lace distinctions with a bit of imagination they can be transposed to equivalent R.N. ranks.

http://www.royal-naval-reserve.co.uk/service.htm

Luckily now the RNR wear the same as the RN but with an 'R' in the curl. So much easier.

A confusing subject indeed, yet fascinating.

I think I see the reason for your initial post. An RNR Skipper was I believe a Warrant Officer, the next rank up being Chief Skipper. This was a Chief Warrant Officer, (CWO). This was also known as Commissioned from Warrant Officer (also CWO) and ranked with a Sub Lieut. I am unsure if CWOs also held a King's Commission. This is where most confusion comes in for me.

The easiest understanding is that Warrant and Commissioned Officers were in fact Officers. Chief Petty Officers and the rest were not. The Navy then was very much like the U.S. forces are now regarding W.O.s.

I omitted in the previous post that the cuff buttons for WOs were, I believe done away with in the 1920s. Also the Jack Russell, could he be the Warrant Rat Catcher, maybe the Jossman's assistant?

I'm still trying to fully understand it myself so any info that comes to light I'd like to know.

A small test then guys. Can anybody tell me about the term "show a leg"? 10 whole points to the winner

←

Trouble is in this day and age it's as likely to be hairy as have a well turned ankle on the end.

Thanks all,

Chris went to South Africa with the Royal Sussex Regiment, the trio is Army Veterinary Corps and as I said the LS is Bechuanaland. It seems from his M.I.C.s (nothing is simple, he's got 3) that he transferred to the AVC in 1905, reserve in 1910 and presumably joined the B. Police then. No indication of when he rejoined the AVC but was discharged in Oct 1915 probably returning to the police.

Grandad started WW1 on HMS Hindustan, then had a little over a year at Vernon and Victory before joining the Lucia for the remainder of the year and also the North Russia withdrawal in 1919

Warrant Officers had two classes, those with Wardroom status that lived with the Gun Room Officers and those without that lived on the Orlop deck.

The Wardroom Warrant Officers were the Master, Surgeon, Purser and Chaplain. The Master was an Executive Officer with much seagoing experience, usually starting as a cabin boy. The others were 'civil' officers later joined by the Secretary. All were made Commissioned Officers shortly after Trafalgar. The Master rank continued until around 1850 when the rank was dropped and he became an Exec branch Lieutenant.

The non Wardroom Warrant Officers were the Boatswain, Gunner and Carpenter, living on the Orlop deck with the Midshipmen and cadets. Later the Midshipman Schoolmaster was promoted to Warrant Officer Rank as Naval Instructor and Schoolmaster.

In 1860 Warrant Officers of the Engineering branch were introduced with the advent of steam. This was mainly due to the fact that experienced engineers had to be recruited from outside the service.

Later other Warrant Officers such as Telegraphists were introduced.

The attached photo taken on HMS Glasgow ca 1920 shows a group of Warrant Officers. The gentleman in the front centre wears a narrow stripe with a curl for an Executive Warrant Officer with 10 years seniority, on the right at front is a Civil Warrant Officer with 10 year seniority, narrow stripe no curl. The others are W.O.s with less than 10 years seniority. Chief Warrant Officers wore a half inch stripe as a Sub Lieut. (Chief Boatswain, Chief Gunner etc)

In 1949 the Admiralty Warrants were withdrawn. W.O.s became branch officers wearing a thin stripe. A few years later this was discontinued and they became Special Duties List officers

It all began with standing officers, these were the guys running the ship, When the ship 'paid off', Ratings and (King's or Queen's) Commisioned officers left the ship to await the next war.

The Admiralty Warrented (standing) officers stayed with the ship.

More to come, just give me a couple of days.

I'll try to make a bit more sense then

His brother Chris's medals, note the LSGC is Bechuanaland. He finished both his service time and his life in Africa.

Retired in 1926 but WW2 screwed that.

The first is my Grandfather, Joined in 1904

I've had a good look through this thread and come up with the following:-

#48 (1st) King's Dragoon Guards, worn from 1937. At some time in WW2 this was changed to white metal.

#56 Queens Own Cameron Highlanders pre 1897 pattern but believed to have survived in wear a lot longer (1960s?)

#4 Known within the regiment as 'The Motto' not as a cap badge was the 17th Lancers, not changed in amalgamation with the 21st.

#10 Post war REME

#14 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, is it brass or white metal? Normal badge for all types of headdress.

#15 This is not a Jewish Chaplains badge. It's often attributed to the 'Jewish Brigade'. Beware of the Trinidad and Tobago Police badge also misrepresented as Jewish Chaplain.

#22 Strange that this badge should have the EGYPT plinth slotted for the castle. Difficult to explain, but then so is my blackened version.

#26 POW = Princess of Wales.

#92 Guards Machine Gun Battalion, 'Quinque juncta in uno' meaning Five joined as one, referring to the five regiments of foot guards. Later replaced by the Guards Machine Gun Regiment.

Loathe to end on a sour note, but the Nelson Bn. badges are well known fakes. The first 'N' in Nelson should be upright.

Marcus,

This scan is from the latest edition of John Gaylor's Military Badge Collecting Plate 30. The West Kent Yeomanry (Queen's Own). As you can see there are a few small differences such as the head and fore legs but it's the closest I've got to identifying this badge. They merged with The Royal East Kent Yeomanry in 1920 and became a gunner unit.

I'm not totally convinced that these are the same, hopefully one day someone will come up with a definitive answer.

Hi Jim,

Wickstead Park do you know it !! Thats where I live, I walk the dog there each day

The Northants Cadet one, was one Dad got post war sometime either when he was in RAF or before he joined ? He can't remember bless him but he's knocking onto 80 now. He's from up North & and Mums from Bucks, so no relation to anything/one down here in the family.

The Kettering Volunteers badge, I bought that along with some WW2 Home Guard shoulder titles NN what ever they are, again up the loft some where   I thought maybe he was in the first war, at home or oversea's perhaps and then joined a Kettering Dads Army lot, I bet they did train at Wickies

The MFP reminds me of the Royals (Royal Dragoon cap badge)  ?????

Here's the reverse out of interest

Kr

Marcus

←

Yeah, Wickstead Park it was the Alton of the 60s, helter skelter and all that, couldn't be beaten in '63. Has it changed much? We used to live in Corby

That Kent badge with the INVICTA in block letters is still a mystery, I keep checking but can't pin it down

Here we go.

The Warrant Officer in the Royal Navy was until his demise in the late 40s a quite unique rank. The rank had absolutely nothing in common with the Army rank of Warrant Officer. He was Admiralty Appointed, and outranked his Army equivalents.

It was derived from Boatswains etc.

On the resumption of the WO rank in the R.N. in 1970 an equivalent rank to the Army WO1 of Fleet Chief was introduced.

How deep do you wish to go? It ain't easy!

I've never seen one that didn't have stag grip slabs. Unlike most KS98 the quality is top notch on both sides.

There are not to the best of my knowledge any pictures of this particular sidearm in wear, if anyone has any I'd love to see them.

I put this one up on GDC and eventually got the thumbs up as it has a Luft WaffentAmpt on the tang. Most are marked Waffen Losche, Houston Coates has seen an Eickhorn and here's a Coppel

Some say good some say bad on this as it's a thin horse ???

←

I've got to say bad on the thin horse Marcus, if only because I have one exactly the same even down to that small reversed 'tick' mark die flaw in the G of the cypher. It shouldn't be there.

That AAC badge is one that some have issues with, saying that the extra metal along the spine of the eagle shouldn't be there. I'm tending to buck the trend and say that it's perfectly right. I do however have a restrike (or fake since I don't think it's from an original die) that would better satisfy people.

I don't have a problem with the Recce Corps with lugs, seen more like this than with sliders. I think collars were the same size so just maybe.........

MFP don't know about that one, it looks very much like my 'representative copy' (good way of saying fake), but I don't think I've seen one that could be attributed.

The Northamptonshire Cadets, what a treasure, any history on it? I haven't seen those faked.

Kettering Vols is a nice one! Wickstead Park Warriors?

Next batch?