Tim Tezer

I think the "FR" stamp is Rothe's mark, and the lack of silver assay marks is always puzzling. Regardless of when it was made - before 1918, after 1918, or 2007 - it should have a silver mark. But what is supposed to be done and what is actually done are two different things. Without a mark, it may not be possible to determine when it was made, and if it had a mark it would only give you a broad expanse of time during which the mark was used. I believe that current Austrian silver marks have not changed since 1922.

Tim

It seems as thought the forgers are stepping-up their efforts!

Actually, I believe I have seen one of these before, several years ago. So maybe it's not a new effort. The one I remember was a cast copy, with a very shiny gilt finish, but I was amazed at the quality of the detail in the eagles and how close they were to the originals. I did not save any photos of it, but this looks like it might be the same type.

Obviously, whoever added the "W" mark was named William, or Walter, or Warren or something.

Tim

Mine has blue enamel, but if I drink enough Jagermeister it starts to turn purple like that.

Tim

Tim, doesn't the Steve French badge have the same maker mark as the badge posted by Gor?

Very observant! Yes, it does appear that the little "E" (or whatever it is) is a maker's mark, and both of these transitional post-WW1 badges have the same maker! Cool!

Tim

...and not only fabricating a story, but in many cases these pieces are being marked with what are supposed to be the maker marks of Wagner or Godet before they're sold. That is when the item crosses the line from being a copy to being a fake - when someone willfully alters it with the intention to deceive a buyer.

Tim

I am firmly in the camp that the BB & CO. pieces were awarded by the Turkish government. Although I live in California, which makes it difficult to come up with first-hand evidence, I am assured by collectors in Turkey that they have seen numerous Turkish uniform and medal groups with BB & Co. stars. Even the photo posted in this recent thread on GMIC shows a Turkish officer wearing what is certainly an enameled version, which appears to me to be a BB & Co. example:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11350

Theodore's comment about the BB & Co. pieces in Bulgaria echoes what I've heard from collectors in Turkey. If these were private purchase, then at the very least they were sold during the war, sold in large numbers, and sold to Turks, Bulgarian, and Austrians as well as German recipients. However, it seems more likely to me that they were issued to them, not sold.

Also, Gerd asked if these were simply campaign awards for Gallipoli. That is not the case. They were military decorations, and were awarded until the end of the war in 1918, and believed to have been used by Mustafa Kemal's Turkish forces during the Independence War as well.

Tim

It would be interesting to see if a similar photo could be found with someone wearing Turkish orders, as well as the medals, as it appears that the abolition of all Ottoman awards after the establishment of the Republic is mostly mythology. Even today, the idea persists that the Independence Medal was the only military award of the Turkish Republic, but there were a handful of military medals that were issued. Also, in 1983 an entirely new set of military decorations was instituted, so if ever there was any truth in the myth, there isn't any more.

Tim

Very interesting - and a very rare photo indeed! Strictly speaking, he should not have been wearing the Ottoman medals, but the photo is probably very early, right after the institution of the Independence Medal. Also, this may bear evidence of the Liyakat and TWM being awarded during the War for Independence - he might have won them in the 1920's rather than in WW1, but we couldn't be sure.

One thing is clear - that moustache is a winner

Tim

An Osmanie Order without a Mejidie Order is a rarity, but not necessarily an impossibility. However, as the first two ribbons clearly indicate that the recipient was a combattant, I find it a little odd that he didn't also win the Liyakat medal. It seems to me that there would have been something in between the TWM and the Osmanie. Also, the placement of a TWM ahead of the Osmanie in order of precedence is unlikely, as the Osmanie was fairly prestigious. (To make a rough comparison to Prussian awards, the Mejidie knight's badge, which means 5th class, would be approximately equivalent to a Prussian Crown Order 4th class; the Osmanie knight's badge was a 4th class, and would be closer in equivalency to a Red Eagle Order, 3rd class. The Turkish War Medal would have ranked about a step lower than the Iron Cross 2nd class, so there is no real Prussian equivalent.)

Since the red color of the 4th ribbon is a little purplish, is it possible that that's not a Turkish War Medal at all? Perhaps a Hessen-Darmstadt Kriegsehrenzeichen, followed by maybe a Bavarian Jubilee Medal?

Tim

Carsten Zeige sometimes has direct sale merchandise on his web site, so why not on Ebay? Other auction companies and dealers have done it as well. It's just another way to reach a wide buyer base.

As for the breast star, it is described as "post 1918", made by Rothe. Bear in mind that Rothe made numerous copies of rare and valuable orders well into the 1970's and possibly even later. They are well known as copies - filler pieces, if you will. Their price is determined by what the market will bear and has nothing to do with the value of an original.

Tim

While theoretically possible, I've never seen one, either in person or in any of the books such as Geissler, Bowen, etc. Considering that Turkish War Medals ('Eiserner Halbmond') were being made in Germany for issue by the Turkish Government, it seems unlikely that any maker in Turkey had the capacity to mass produce Iron Crosses. Unless it's got some markings on it that indicate Turkish manufacture, I wouldn't see any reason to come to that conclusion.

Tim

Stefan,

I saw your postings on the other thread, and the replies. I have to say, whether the bump on the frame is possible or not on an original doesn't change my opinion: I also think yours is not original. I know it may not be a popular opinion (especially among collectors who have pieces just like yours in their collections, and who may have paid a lot for them), but I have mentioned before in a posting on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum that I don't like the look of painted cores on 1813's in general, and especially when they have the spots of rust bubbling through the paint as this one has. I have seen that same pattern of rust on EKs - both 1813 and 1870 - that were being sold by some of the most disreputable dealers known.

The 1813 EK2 should not have a lacquered or stove-enameled iron core, unless it is of a much later manufacture. Blackened iron does not have a coating on it - it is rubbed with an oil compound and fired in an oven to turn the surface black. Even original issue 1870 EKs usually had blackened iron cores, so the use of a coating of enamel or lacquer should be considered a very late development.

Tim

Never seen this one before. I think Rick's conclusion is probably correct. I wonder if the ribbon was originally part of this, or if someone just used a piece of Osmanie order ribbon to make it look nice?

Tim

Yeah, I don't really know where the 'French made' idea comes from. To sum it up, the main differences I have seen between variants are the direction of the lines in the guilloche under the red enamel surrounding the center medallion. I have seen examples described as being made by Gebr. Hemmerle where the lines are in little dashes running in concentric circles around the medallion, while others (like this one) have lines that radiate out from the center. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a really definitive reference work on this order.

Tim

Claudio,

It looks as though you have "hit the wall" on the number and size of JPEGs you can post at one time. These photos are much more detailed than the ones in Zeige's online catalog. Did you just e-mail them to ask for these photos?

Anyway, the Saxon Albert Order looks perfect to me, but I am unable to explain how the reverse medallion came to be upside-down. I believe these are soldered in place, so it would imply that at some time it came off for some reason and was re-attached.

The Mecklenburg-Schwerin Wendish Crown Order is very nice, but I have seen two variants, one of which has been described as "French made." Not sure who the maker would have been if it was a French maker, but this one has the characteristics of the supposedly French made pieces. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who knows more about the variants of this order.

Tim

I'm still looking for proof of any I.C. made by Rothe! If you know of one, please let me know.

Andreas Thies sold a prinzen EK2 by Rothe in the original case, with the manufacturer's gold stamp in the case lid, in his December 2002 auction. The sale included EKs (among other things) from the Vern Bowen collection and from the collection of the late BDOS President Willi Waldwogel. You can see the rather large (4 MB) PDF file here, but the photos are very grainy:

http://www.andreas-thies.de/pdf/herbst02/A..._2002_Teil2.pdf

The Rothe prinzen EK is lot 206. You may still be able to buy a copy of this catalog.

Tim

Let me stir the embers here a bit to bring on some heat.

I am a bit puzzled by the lack of a stepped cores in the examples shown.

My understanding is that the earlier produced 1813 EKIIs had a fairly prominent stepped core. The stepped core is only found on the 1813 series of EKIIs. Later 1870 and 1914 EKIIs lacked the stepped core. ( Other than the current rash of reproduction prinzens with stepped cores.)

I would suggest that these 1813s are from a bit later in the Imperial era. Possibly 1870's or as late as the Jubilee era of the mid 1890s.

Comments?

Tony

1) Tom's does have a stepped core, and although it's a little difficult to see I would say the one from the unnamed German dealer also appears stepped. Sometimes the edge of the "step" disappears under the frame, which is understandable because the step was apparently intended to hold the core in alignment with the frame.

2) The 2nd issue pieces authorized in the 1830's for those who did not receive theirs during the war were NOT stepped. So examples with flat cores existed at least as early as that, and its likely that some (private purchase perhaps) were made during or immediately after the war, given that the 1st class crosses were also generally not stepped.

Tim

I can't find any reference that gives much real information about these. I don't know how many were made or issued, but the gold ones were the top class. They must be quite scarce. Oddly enough, I don't see too many bronze ones, either. But yours definitely looks like gold. Mine is gilt, and it doesn't have the same luster at all.

Tim

Sorry I've been so slow getting on to this. I wanted to see if any of the books I have give a date when these were made and awarded, but I haven't had any free time to sit down and look it up. In any case, it is not an Ottoman military pilot's badge, it's an early Turkish Republic badge for donating funds or services to the reconstruction of the Turkish Air Force. The Latin alphabet was not introduced until 1928, so either the case is not for this badge, or they were introduced prior to 1928 and the cases made with that inscription. (I looked at the photo of the case inscription on the Australian War Memorial site - good luck trying to read that.) The "T.C. 18" mark on Daniel's example is a Turkish Republic 18 carat gold hallmark. I have one of these in my collection, but it's made of gilded white metal and is not hallmarked.

I'm afraid that the Australian War Memorial has simply been given bad information.

Tim

There are definitely fakes around, especially in the yellow metal 1st and 2nd classes of the cross, and the non-Christian versions. Fourth classes are not so valuable, so you are less likely to encounter quality fakes, but even those have been copied. Things to look out for:

- Wrong suspension loop. These should always be the flat lugs as shown in the pictures above. Some private purchase pieces were made with different styles of suspension, and they are perfectly legitimate period examples, but they were usually of noticeably higher quality and would not have any serial numbers on the reverse.

- Uneven surfaces on the flat parts of the cross arms. Some cast copies have a "wavy" look to them.

- Serial numbers that are not stamped. Cast copies may have the serial numbers cast into the cross rather than stamped after manufacture, but it can be very hard to tell the difference. Serial numbers were never engraved, either.

- Dull sounds. I'm not kidding. If you take one off the suspension loop and drop it flat onto a hard surface like a glass table, it should ring like a coin. Cast or electrotype copies make a very dull metallic sound.

Tim

Claudio,

What is the width of this cross? It looks to me like one of the 1830's issued pieces. These are said to have been made by Godet, although I don't think there is any positive evidence of that.

Tim

If you translated it AND obtained photos of bonafide originals of as many pieces as possible (none of this "that will have to do as a filler photo" attitude that some authors fall into), then we would have your bronzed image placed in the Pantheon of medals authors. You might not actually make any money, but we'd love you for it anyway.

Tim

I've been out of the loop for several days, so I'm a bit late chiming in. My only comment is that I have seen an example of a Godet type PLM that came in a Hemmerle marked case, so they may have subcontrated them from Godet. As for whether that lends credence to the story on this one, well.... I guess it's up to the buyer to decide how much the story is worth.

Tim

Cripers, no way to know one way or another, great story, but can only remain skeptical.

Well, I'm licking my wounds, but in some ways I think it's kind of funny. There was a Spanish copy paired with a fake zeppelin badge that even had bogus engraving on the PLM, which was getting lots of bids. Anybody see what that sold for?

I'm going to put the PLM on the market right here on the GMIC and I'll be guaranteed a more knowledgeable audience.

Tim

The crosshatching on the two PLMs I posted is chased, or engraved into the eagles, and is part of the finishing process, not part of the die. If the die wore enough that there were no feathers visible (and there were almost none in the wartime issue PLMs) this would have been done to compensate. I don't think they bothered to rework the dies, because they would have made so few of them it would have been just as easy to have someone who hand-finished the eagles add a little touch-up to the detail.

As for the S&L copies, I don't suppose it's possible that S&L actually started making some between the wars? They didn't include it in their 1939 catalog, so it seems unlikely. But is it possible?

Tim