Mike Dwyer

Really beautiful, Kev! Maybe someday I can afford one myself!

Chip:

Just got back from vacation and saw your reply. Thank you for your comments. I also thought there would be more interest in the tunic, based on the content of this thread.

Regards

Dave

Sorry, Davd! I didn't post anything because I remember seeing this beautiful coat somewhere else before. It's still a fantastic piece!

what I can see he has only one pip on his shoulder and that would make him an Lt or ObLt am I right?

Yes, one pip on his shoulder would make him an Oberleutnant.

I probably should wait for the experts to come in, but I'm pretty sure that is not an Imperial Navy uniform. I think it's from a merchant line.

Paul,

Not my field at all, but are you saying these poor guys had to have collar tabs and shoulderboards on their uniforms that were only going to be there temporarily and then they had to have them all changed out?? What a pain!

Glenn,

Thanks for the further explanation!

c hill,

Wow! I bet that was very interesting actually getting to meet him.

Very, very nice, Chris. I love the personal stories like this, especially the ones that don't turn out too sad!

Very nice photos!!!

Yeah, but I love that blue enamel and gold!

I'm with Dave. The plain white Johanniter cross was/is always worn on the left side like most other order stars/crosses. All of the ones I've ever seen worn in photos were white cloth and were sewn to the tunic. Somewhere I saw a white enamel pin on cross, but I've never seen one being worn in a photo.

I can't answer your question, but it sure looks like his Swedish Order of the Northern Star was pinned on as a last minute thought! Look how his three German pinback awards are neatly arranged in a pattern and his Swedish star is crooked and not centered on his pocket like it should be. Unless, of course, this was taken the day the Swedish order was awarded and that's where they had to put it because his coat had not been prepared by his tailor to accept another pinback award.

Here's the second bar. Still trying to get used to posting pics so I apologize for their small size.

Richard V

Very nice! It's interesting to see that they are mounted in the German court style and not in the usual Austrian triangle style. Perhaps the owners lived in Germany, or they were put together after Germany and Austria were united?

If only we could turn back the clock (but then we would go to 1900, presumably, and not to 1998 ......)

GdC26,

I've told this story when I first joined the forum, but you may not have seen it. When I was 14 (back in 1964) I lived for one year with my brother and his wife who was stationed in West Berlin with the US Army. We went to an antique store one time and there were about 20-25 beautiful pickelhauben displayed on a shelf. I asked the proprietor, "How much?" and he said, "$45.00 each" for a 14 year old boy in 1964 that was a lot of money and I couldn't afford it, so I never got one. My brother has an SS dagger he purchased for $25.00 and an SA dagger he got for $15.00.

Dynastic awards are certainly within the purview of whoever the current Head of the House is

but I was under the impression that the German law of 1935 banned any such awards from that point on?

I wonder who is making these now, and what they are made from. It would be very interesting to compare a new Ernestine side by side, in hand with an old one.

Rick,

You hear all kinds of arguments either way. I have read some articles that successor states can ban a former monarchy's orders, but others say that technically, if they're a house order, the state can only try to ban them, they're still entirely in the personal purview of the head of the house. The state my ban the wearing of the awards by members of the civil service and military, and they may pass a law banning the awarding of the orders, but in reality that law is meaningless (in a small sense) because the order belongs to that house, not to the state. Some people argue very forcefully that these former ruling house awards are "invalid". I personally belong to the school that says successor states have no authority over house orders of former ruling houses (other than the wearing by public officials and the military). I don't know anything about German law, perhaps the law of 1935 dissapeared after 1945, or maybe it's just ignored today.

I read recently that the head of the royal house of Bavaria, Duke Franz, awarded the Order of St Hubertus to two individuals a few years back. I think one was the ruling Prince of Lichtenstein and I don't recall who the other one was. The Habsburgs still award the Order of the Golden Fleece as a house order too.

While this isn't actually imperial, since it's dealing with today and not the past, I found this kind of interesting. I almost hesitated to post this since I've noticed there are some who seem to have a misunderstanding of the facts on how legitimate house orders work today, but I couldn't pass up this opportunity since it's the only German house order I've seen discussed on the Internet so far.

The ducal house of Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha has a fairly new website. They used to have one that I visited on occasion but yesterday I found that it was gone. Through some searching I found the new, much bigger, site. Unfortunately the new site isn't in English yet, but I guess it will be coming. It's located at http://www.sachsen-coburg-gotha.de/?Das_Herzogshaus

Anyway, there is a section in there on the Hausorden, there is even a photo of the current head of the house, Prinz Andreas, and his heir, Erbprinz Hubertus, wearing the grand cordon of the Hausorden. The page on the Hausorden lists the Ordenkanzler as Dr. Otto Fugmann.

Here's the text from the webpage:

Hausorden

Hausorden haben im Haus Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha eine lange Tradition.

Der heutige "Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha'sche Hausorden" geht auf den "Orden der deutschen Redlichkeit" aus dem Jahre 1689 (andere Quellen: 1690) zur?ck.

Gegr?ndet wurde der "Orden der deutschen Redlichkeit" von Herzog Friedrich I. von Sachsen-Gotha in Andenken an seinen Vater, Herzog Ernst den Frommen. Dieser Orden gilt als der erste deutsche weltliche Ritterorden (vgl. Nimmergut, J?rg, Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen bis 1945, S. 1369, 1999) (vereinzelt wird er sogar als "erster deutscher Orden" bezeichnet, vgl. Burg, Paul, Der Orden der deutschen Redlichkeit, Leipzig 1921).

Die Devise des Ordens war damals bereits "Fideliter et Constanter" (Treu und Best?ndig). Sie ist auch heute noch die Devise des Hauses.

Nachfolger des Ordens der deutschen Redlichkeit war der Sachsen-Ernestinische Hausorden.

Dieser Orden wurde 1833 von den Herz?gen Bernhard Erich Freund von Sachsen-Meiningen und Ernst I. von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha sowie Erbprinz Joseph von Sachsen-Altenburg als "Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden" neu gestiftet. Er kn?pfte an die bisherigen Grunds?tze an und behielt auch die Ordensdevise "Fideliter et Constanter" bei.

Schon der "Orden der deutschen Redlichkeit" war als eine "Ehrenauszeichnung der F?rstlichen Glieder Unseres Hauses und zugleich als ?ffentliche Anerkennung des Verdienstes" konzipiert. Auch der Sachsen-Ernestinische Hausorden war eine Auszeichnung f?r "Staatsdiener und Unterthanen, die mit deutscher Redlichkeit, durch ausgezeichnete Thaten, besondere Treue und aufopfernde Ergebenheit sich vorz?gliche Anspr?che auf die Achtung und Dankbarkeit des Staates erworben haben" (aus der Pr?ambel der Statuten von 1833).

Der Orden bestand urspr?nglich aus vier Klassen (Stand 1833):

Gro?kreuz

Comthure 1. Klasse

Comthure 2. Klasse

Ritter

Daneben bestand noch ein mit dem Orden affiliertes Ehrenzeichen mit den Stufen "Verdienstkreuz" und "Verdienstmedaille".

Mit der Verleihung des Gro?kreuzes an nichtadlige Personen war die Erlangung aller Rechte des Geburtsadels verbunden.

Die Anzahl der Ordensverleihungen war durch die Statuen begrenzt. Neben den Prinzen der beteiligten H?user konnten nach den Statuten von 1833 maximal 9 weitere Gro?kreuze verliehen werden. Die anderen 3 Stufen waren auf insgesamt 12, 18 bzw. 36 Verleihungen beschr?nkt. Ab 1864 wurden die Beschr?nkungen auf 12 Gro?kreuze, 15 Comthure 1. Klasse, 24 Comthure 2. Klasse und 48 Ritter erh?ht.

Unbeschr?nkt war die Anzahl der Verdienstkreuze und -medaillen.

1864 wurden auch weitere Klassen eingef?hrt, so dass ab diesem Jahr folgende Unterteilung bestand:

Gro?kreuz

Comthure 1. Klasse

Comthure 2. Klasse

Ritter 1. Klasse

Ritter 2. Klasse

sowie

Verdienstkreuz

Verdienstmedaille in Gold

Verdienstmedaille in Silber

Der Sachsen-Ernestinische Hausorden wurde bis 1935 verliehen und stellte eine der angesehensten Verdienstauszeichnungen dar (vgl. Illing, Fritz, Orden und Ehrenzeichen der Staaten Th?ringens 1590-1935, S. 19)

Aufbauend auf den erloschenen Sachsen-Ernestinischen Hausorden wurde nun im Jahre 2006 von Prinz Andreas, dem Oberhaupt des Hauses Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, der Herzoglich Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha'sche Hausorden gestiftet.

Auch mit diesem Orden werden herausragende Verdienste um Gemeinwohl und das Haus Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha gew?rdigt.

In Anlehnung an die historischen Vorbilder besteht der Orden heute aus folgenden Klassen:

Gro?kreuz

Comthurkreuz

Ritterkreuz

sowie als mit dem Hausorden affiliiertes Ehrenzeichen das

Verdienstkreuz

Der Ordenskanzler

Dr. Otmar Fugmann

There are two photos within the text that did not copy so here they are separately:

...and here's Prinz Andreas in formal dress wearing the grand cordon:

...and Erbprinz Hubertus:

I'm sure there are those who'll disagree, but I, for one, am very pleased to see a house keeping its traditions.

According to information I located on the Internt, Labor Omnia Vincit means "Labor conquers all things" and is the motto of the state of Oklahoma, numerous colleges, and the fomer labor organization The American Federation of Labor (AFL) which later merged to become the AFL-CIO. The emblem though, isn't the one shown for the AFL.

I'm no expert, but if they are imperial German shoulderboards, they're for a Prussian one-year volunteer (black/white edging).

Rod,

Probably the most common Johanniter badge you see in photos is the white cloth cross worn sewn on the lower portion of the jacket. Kaiser Wilhelm had one sewn on every one of his uniforms, I believe.

Here's a photo of the Kaiser and you can see the large white cloth cross on his jacket.

I could be mistaken, but I believe that is a Johanniter neck cross he's wearing also.

Here's a close-up of the neck cross from another photo.

And last, but not least, here's a photo of Duke Johann Albrecht of Mecklenburg-Schwerin who's also wearing the white cloth cross on his jacket.

Ups, sorry.

Hmm, webr55's man wears his Wehrmacht long servie awards in wrong order, mine wears a oak leave that looks like the one for a 1870 Iron Cross on his WWI Baden merit medal, and Rick's General wears his Iron Cross with back on front. I guess this thread is for those people who say "there's something wrong, the bar m u s t be faked or manipulated" ...

Well, I wasn't sure, but I thought those oak leaves looked strange on the WW1 Baden merit medal.

This is all very interesting, but could you more knowledgable folks let us ignorant ones in on why these medal bars are baaaaaddd???

Wild Card,

Very, very nice!

I agree the Johanniter crosses are among the most beautiful. Although they are very similar, of course, to the Malta crosses and the British Venerable Order crosses, I like the Johanniter ones the best (I guess it's the Prussian eagles!)

Very, very nice!

Mike,

Where do you see a "II"? Both the 101. and the 110. have a Roman numeral "I" underneath the cypher. Take a look at this period regimental postcard from the 101st.

Chip

Chip,

You are, of course, correct and I'm a blind idiot who thought it was a II, but that's actually that little center seam on the I. Since the photo was a little fuzzy I thought I just couldn't see the space in the II clearly, but after looking at it again it's a seam, not a space, so it's actually a I. I've deleted my original post. Both regiments were dedicated to the first Kaiser, Wilhelm I.

I have fussed around in the imperial period and still not have found my niche!!

I love the pour le merite but it is far beyond my financial means PLUS there are more land mines than I can negotiate.

Hummmm .. I have noted the pour le merite closely resembles the Johnitter Order. BUT I have found very little information on the Johanniter.

Would someone plus explain the Johanniter Order and give some comment as to the advisability of collecting such items?

Rod

Rod,

The Balley Brandenburg des Ritterlichen Ordens Sankt Johannis vom Spital zu Jerusalem, known as the Johanniter Order, is a Protestant order of chivalry that was originally a part of the Catholic order called The Sovereign Order of Saint John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta, commonly known as the Knights of Malta. With the Protestant reformation in Germany the branch there became Lutheran instead of Catholic. It is still very active in Germany today under the Herrenmeister Oskar Prince of Prussia. They have a web site (in German) at http://www.johanniter.de/org/orden/deindex.htm I'm afraid I know nothing about the collectability of Johanniter insignia.

Is that a II at the bottom?

Thanks

Chris

Chris,

I'm deleting everything I just said because I can't seem to be able to see as well as I used to and everything I wrote was incorrect!!