NavyFCO

I wonder if the Red Stars are ones that are actual posthumous ones, or just ones there as "examples" like the Gold Star/Lenin combos... If they're the real ones, WOW would I love to get the serial numbers off them!!!!!

if you would have access to a Glory 1cl located in the "country of freedom & democracy" in the condition 8/10 for about USD 4000,- (or even less), you can make some profit by selling the medal to St. Petersburg or Moscow .

Dear Christian:

Like I said in the post, Igor has the customer base to do that - he has people who have the money in St Petersburg and Moscow and Kiev who are willing to pay. These contacts I don't have, unfortunately. C'est la vie!

Dave

I am again awed at the customer base that Igor has built over the years. I am sure that he probably has a customer (probably not in this country) who will pay that for it. I think if any "private party" were to try and sell it, they'd probably feel lucky to hit somewhere in the $4-$5K range, if even that.

Dave

during the GPW our comrade was a NCO - that's clear. Show us one case, where a comrade, who started as a sub-lieutenant at the Red Army Airforce promoted to a full Cavalier .

I have seen research for a Glory 2nd to a non-NCO... Suppose that person could have also gotten a Glory 1st before being promoted? (Or received the Glory 1st as an officer?) I agree that most were NCOs, but I think there were more than a few exceptions. Perhaps slava1stclass could enlighten us to the few cases? (They'd be good in a book, I think...)

Anyway, I just wondered if you knew for certain that he was an NCO. Perhaps you identified him also? I think I may have too.

Seriously.... What I find even more interesting about his ribbons is his lack of service awards. Even as an NCO, he would still have qualified for the 10 year MM, the 15 year Red Star, etc...... So if he had been commissioned, even as a Border Guard, he would have still qualified for the long service awards. This (I think) is a most odd case where he got out of the military, and may have received the Homeland 3rd as a civilian. Something that isn't supposed to happen, but.......

Dave

At least our comrade is a very rare example of an NCO, who is a full Cavalier + got a Motherland 3cl .

Christian:

How do you know that he was an NCO?

Dave

My first awards were bought on Izmailova Market in April 1992, so I missed the "Soviet" period. (Though I did start collecting Soviet uniforms/insignia back in the 1980s, and they were VERY expensive!) However, I did meet a handful of collectors who all lamented buying awards before the end of the USSR. I can remember one guy who paid something like $200 for a For Valor medal. As Ed says, the prices back then make even the craziest of prices now look positively cheap!

It must have been a real shock to those pre-fall of the USSR collectors to see the shows as Wild Card describes them.... boxes and boxes of Red Stars, OGPWs, etc., way more of them than anyone would ever think of collectors buying them. As one dealer told me in about 1996 or 1997 as I was looking though binder after binder of Glory 3rds, Red Stars, etc: "Make me an offer on all this $*@(. No one wants to buy it and I just want to dump it all...." Note that as it was, there were only a few of the awards that he had priced over $15 anyway, and most were around $10 and below... Yeah, those were the days......

Dave

My first box of books arrived (they come in boxes of 15) so I'll do what I can to get the first few reserved ones out (others have to go to the copyright office, etc...) this weekend or next weekend (the tough part about living away from your home!) I should have another box in in the next 10 days or so with another batch.

Dave

Pete:

WW2 vintage OGPW2s are worth more around $70+ depending on variation.

These guys that he offered are all 1985 ones and you'd be lucky to get $15 a pop for them, IMHO. I'd say that if he were offering me 1985 versions for $200 worth of trade, he should be offering me something around 18 ~ 20 of them.

Dave

In the interim, can some kind soul help me with translations of what Dave has shared here. While I try, the handwriting here is worse than most (some?).

Ed, here goes:

Order book number 544179

1. Family name: Guzov

2. Name and patronimic: Mikhail Ivanovich

3. Military Rank: Captain, (I can't read the branch, I think it's just an I/S)

4. Sex: Male

5. Date of birth: 1910

6. Place of birth: BSSR, station Orsha

7. Party affiliation: Cl VKP(b) since 1939

8. Education: Normal

9. Nationality: Belorussian

10. In the Red Army: Since 1934

11. Place of service at time of awarding: Chief HOZ(?) Independent Staff, 36th Army, Rear area Front (I think that's a right translation?)

12. Chief of the same thing, for the 36th Army

13. Home address: Chita-2 Lenina No. 126 Kv 13

Awarded the following decorations:

Medal "For Military Merit" 1458581 with temporary document 148701 by Ukaz of the Supreme Soviet dated 3 November 1944 (e.g. long service)

Order of the Red Star 1923384 temporary document 579578, Prikaz 36th Army No. 019/N dated 30 September 1945

Medal For Victory Over Germany document number 00015736 by Ukaz of the Supreme Soviet dated 9 May 1945.

Order of the Red Star 3000629 in document number 544179 by Ukaz of the Supreme Soviet dated 15 November 1950.

The second document lists his long service awards:

Family Name Guzov

First name Mikhail, Patronymic Ivanovich

Date of Birth 1910, Nationality Belorussian

Party: Member VKP/b/

In the Red Army since: February 1934. Looks like he might have had broken service with the date below, but I can't read the handwriting, though it does show the dates of 20 April 1948 to 18 July 1950.

His Medal For Military Merit was awarded for 10 years, 9 months of service with the Ukaz date of 3 November 1944. At the time he was a Captain I/S serving as the (or for the?) Deputy Commander of the 1233rd (heavy?) Artillery Regiment, RGK, 36th Army, 3rd something Front. His service was verified (it looks like?) on 12 September 1944 (or that was his eligibility date?)

His Order of the Red Star was awarded for 17 years, 8 months of service by Ukaz dated 15 November 1950. at that time, he was a Major I/S serving for/with Chief of the AKhO, something something, 14th Army (got to love my translations!) :-) He also was eligible for the award in April 1950

His Order of the Red Banner was awarded for 20 years, 5 months of service by Ukaz dated 13 June 1952. He was a Lieutenant colonel I/S at the time and was Deputy Commander for something with the 257th Independent something Battalion. The verification/eligibility date on this one was 25 January 1952

According to this card, he was SUPPOSED to get the Lenin, but I think that since the award criteria changed, he never did, thus the missing Ukaz date in the block. He was eligible for it (it appears) in January 1957. Ouch! My guess is that he just barely missed the gold bobbly. Probably was pissed off and bounced after that.

Dave

Fascinating! Thanks, Dave. I have requested full research, so . . . ???

Ed, you should be able to find out more when the research comes back on it. As for this, I did this research myself as I was curious about the group and this is what one does for friends.

Dave

So my only question is...... Would his Lenin have come with another award booklet? Or, would he have been issued a new booklet with the Lenin and all these earlier awards in it?

I ASSUME (and this is just an assumption) that if it was awarded, it was awarded with another award booklet, as it was never put in the earlier document. What's odd though is that neither the Lenin nor the Red Banner appear on the award card. And I don't think that he would have been eligible for a Lenin in January 1957 (I would have thought it would have been brought forward to December 1956.) That's why I think he might not have gotten it, but I'm at a loss at this one. The page is filled out as though he did... but perhaps they were expecting him to be awarded it, and then when the award criteria changed the entry was never completely crossed out (part of it was though)? Here's a close-up of the card. Perhaps MONDVOR or someone more intimiately familiar with the writing could see something there that I'm missing in my reading of it.

An interesting aside is that the next award for long service was the Red Banner, following the Lenin, being awarded somewhere around 30 years or so.

Dave

Here's his long service award card, which I have never seen before now. What I don't know is if he actually received the Lenin as his 25 years fell in January 1957... it is marked that he did though, as I can understand it. Thoughts?

Dave

I believe the group is good. It's missing an order of Lenin, however. Here's his award card with the awards listed up to his Red Star. As you can see, the numbers match those in the document.

Dave

If nothing else, note who is selling it!

If there's one thing about this auction that would make the buyer with common sense AND money run quickly...in the opposite direction...and NOT look back...would be just that person.

It's not order, just prototype,may be original(who knows?),one from many... and overpriced. I think it will not be sold

I'm with gor... someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think there are several of these out on the collectors market. Also, not to degrade Kutsenko (as he seems pretty right on to me) but I don't put much money into a story where it "might" have been the one shown to Stalin. "Might" and "maybe" are nice, but they aren't (unfortunately) real provenance.

The price will all depend on what oligarchs get in on bidding on it. For my money, I'd rather buy the single Sword of Stalingrad that's on the market, as that has been offered for quite a while now (surprisingly) at less than the estimate of this order.

Dave

In the mid 1990s they were churning out near perfect fakes of these badges. In fact, I had a hard time telling real from fake on the markets, even with Russian collectors helping me to identify them! So, I always stayed away... I can't help you with these, but that's just an interesting point.

Dave

Does anyone have a copy of "Marshals and Admirals of the Fleet of the USSR" handy to ID this Marshal? (If it is indeed a real one?) My copy is unfortunately about 600 miles away from me at the moment.

Dave

More precisely, it is an inventive effort at rendering the ribbon in cloth and with some seamstress help from the recipient's wife. An interesting and cute fantasy.

This ribbon configuration with the stitched detail on the ribbon is actually quite common like this. I believe it was the "norm" for high-ranking recipients to have their ribbons for this award made this way. I've seen three or four uniforms from different officers with that ribbon the way it is.

Dave

Years ago, Dave presented a collapsible "Motherland 3cl" to us, as far, as I can rember. What happened to that piece?

Gentlemen, if that is the problem, I can go to my juweller and he will hit carefully at the 3 rivets and the "broken" Nevsky will be fixed forever

Yes, I did. However, one forgets that the Homeland 3rd is able to come apart with the assistance of a simple tool. In the same way, the nut can go back onto the award without any defect to the award. That was the explaination for that. However, it is impossible to have someone restore the rivets on the Nevsky without having them be noticeably altered, especially with the large scratch that is on the top left rivet. Once the rivets are altered, the piece is forever "repaired".

Let us wait for a few weeks and look, if they sell - the market tell the truth. As long, as the main US-dealers sell their stocks, their prices should reflect the situation at the market. That is how capitalism works, I guess

Does the price a vehicle sells at the dealership reflect the actual "value" of the vehicle? Or is it the value of the vehicle sold between two private parties? Or is it the wholesale value on a trade in vehicle? Which one accurately reflects the market?

In much the same way in the Soviet world, one particular dealer sells OGPW1s for over $500 to collectors. Another dealer sells them for $400 to collectors. I have sold them to a dealer for $300. Which is the accurate reflection of the market? What I can sell them for? What the highest price dealer can sell them for? Or what the lower priced dealer can sell them for?

I do not know if there is a good answer to that question, in all honesty. However, I would say that the market realities are somewhere in the middle of what the dealer can sell an item for and what a private person can sell an item for. Realistically, it is rare that a private person will be able to sell an award for the same price that a major dealer is asking (from personal experience.) It is because the dealer has more contacts and a larger base to sell to than the private collector. Thus, if Igor could sell yours for the same price as his (which he would not do as the conditions are considerably different) then yours on the collector-to-collector market is probably worth about 85% of that price. We are now back at my original post in this thread about the value of the piece.

I realize that you can insure it for whatever you want to. Insure it for 10,000,000 euros/pounds/rubles/shrunken heads/whatever if you'd like. However, you asked for the value of the piece, and several posters gave you their opinion as far as the value. You, however, disagreed with their opinions and decided on the value yourself. If you have a value set in your mind already, please don't waste the time of the members on this forum by asking their opinion and then casting their opinions aside because they do not agree with your own.

Just my two cents.

Dave

It is fixed with the 3 rivets and you need force to pull apart.

We appreciate the chance to see under the Nevsky's star, that's for sure!

However, no matter how much force it takes to take it apart, it's still not as solid as one that doesn't come apart (which the ones on the dealer's websites do not do) and thus that greatly devalues it.

Since you are not selling it, you may ascribe to it any value that you would like. I personally believe that usairforce and I are close to the "reality" value of it as most of those Russian collectors who you believe might buy it at high prices want perfect or near perfect examples of pieces, which this Nevsky is not. (You may argue that point all you want, but I have a bit of experience selling "less than perfect" awards in this current market, and it is difficult to realize prices even remotely close to what you'll see on dealer's websites.)

Dave

Nice! I'd buy it if the price were right.

Dave

I would say that the issue date is probably very close to the date in the book - sometime around August 1948.

Dave

collectrussia.com has one for sale for $1995.00 with enamel replaced on two arms. Kind of like a car, the "private party" value (if you can find one) is probably about 85% of that, and then considering that yours is missing the rivets and has replaced enamel, I'd say drops it even more. Thus, it's hard to say without a comparison, but I think it's worth around $1300-$1400, maybe higher to the right buyer, but to my mind the lack of rivets is a real downer on the value.

Just my thoughts on pricing.

Dave

Yes, there were medals... small impression

Wow! I would have LOVED to have gotten the serial numbers and ukaz dates out of those Red Star documents!!!

Andrew and KILKA, your help to this forum is really appreciated. It is very interesting to learn from knowledgeable collectors!

I agree!

Remember: Photos and examples need no translation. I feel lucky that we can have some good Russian collectors who are willing to post some excellent photos of pieces they've seen/owned for examples. Thanks!

Dave