NavyFCO

lentiay:

Welcome!

Do not worry too much about your English abilities on here, they will improve over time. Regardless, they are better than what I could do in Russian on a Russian-language forum!

Dave

First, worthwhile researching a late Red Star or not? Number 3545081 placing it around 57 / 58 after long service awards... or?

Looks like a good piece. As far as research, I checked the database on here, and mine and I think it might well be. Why not?

Dave

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Rick, thanks a million for the translation. Dave, i appreciate EVERY comment, as i am not a hunter for the perfect combat-citation. I like the unusual twists in these stories. Rick and Dave, you guys really bring life in this hobby with the information, you add. Thanks a bunch

Thanks again

Gerd

Gerd-

You're welcome! The thing I love about this hobby is bringing these guys to life, even sometimes the bad stuff that accompanied the good. I find it's a fascinating slice of life back during that time period and in the USSR - a very tumultuous time, even well after the fighting stopped.

Dave

This is very very strange. I'd have expected a Frunze graduate to have been in the run for making General. Something went wrong with his career. He made it through Khruschev's mass reduction of the armed forces in February 1960, but then nothing happened.

We've seen enough groups come back with research to make it appear that 7-8 years as a full colonel without promotion to general meant retirement. But 16 years as a Lieuteant Colonel? OK, the last 4 were borrrrring, but what about the previous 12? Deputy Regimental Commander for a FRUNZE graduate?

Not to rain on anyone's parades, but a lot of officers ran through the Frunze courses, either in residence or by correspondence that never went on to become a general officer. In fact, one of the very few groups I have left in my collection belonged to a Lieutenant Colonel who was also an in-residence Frunze graduate, but never made it past Lieutenant Colonel. There's a few things when talking about the military schools to remember. First, not every officer that goes there is what we consider a "hot runner". If the military needed someone to go to the school, they sent someone. It was preferential that they send a really great officer, but that wasn't always the case. Second, there were different courses at the Frunze school, varying from junior and senior commander courses, etc. Likewise, Frunze courses could be taken via correspondence as well as attending in-resident. Not every course was one that was a "general making" course. If someone went through the junior commander course, they had an entire career to either perform well, or not perform well that would eventually dictate their eventual promotion potential.

Third, we also have to remember that not all officers, and not all WW2 vets were perfect. They varied from really great to not-so-good to downright criminal. We (and this is a corporate we as in the majority of the population) love to put halos around these guys and think that nothing that they could do was beyond reproach, but in reality, that just simply wasn't the case. There were some guys that were simply great officers in the junior levels, but sucked as senior officers, and vice versa (if they were allowed to make it in rank.) Likewise, some people excelled at some skills that simply weren't needed to be advanced.

Let's look for example at the fact that he became a mid-career rifles officer after being a combat communications officer. Talk about being a fish out of water! We don't know why the military did this - perhaps they had too many communications officers, and not enough rifles officers, so they transferred amongst branches? That is certainly possible, but what we do know is that he obviously didn't cut the proverbial mustard as a rifles officer and that lateral transfer into the rifles branch was the end of his career. Was it something more sinister than just the simple fact that he might have been a poor rifles officer? We don't (and can't) know that unless we translate his personnel service reports from his personnel file, read those through the light of someone who can actually understand the nuances of the report writing of the time, and then evaluate his performance from that point. Might be a rather interesting study, actually.

Anyway, just my two kopeks worth as both a graduate of a mid-level commander's course (just as he did) as well as someone who wrote their thesis researching promotion to flag/general officer rank.

Dave

Perhaps the reason why no one could find Altdamm (even though in 1945 it was the largest town in the 61st Army's path) is that by at least 1978, it didn't exist. I assume that it was probably incorporated into Shettin.

Dave

P.S. Yes, I love maps.

I've got a TON of maps in my collection that cover the period 16 April to 9 May (as Paul's does) but there are very few that cover the March-April 1945 time period in detail. However, I did find one that might be of interest.

You can see that on 5 March, the 61st was just to the southeast of Shtargard. They then commenced a pinscer movement, which then brought them directly to the east of Altdamm. Their final lines of movement on this map "the end of March" - so something around the same time that this citation was written. It appears that the 212th Rifle Division was probably on the western edge of the 61st Army, and thus was doing the fighting in Altdamm. Now what you need to do is get a detailed map of that area of travel of the army during March and find the other villages as they have to be within that area.

Dave

In simple words... after the service medals were instituted, does anyone know of a 10/15 and red star/redbanner award for example??

I assume you're referring to a person having a 3rd and 2nd class Irreproachable Service medal, and then being awarded a Red Star and Red Banner for future years of service. It this is correct, I don't know of any like that nor would I think it even possible - at least receving the Red Star/Red Banner for years of service. Like the general's Red Stars from the 1960s, the one set of research that hasn't yet been packed enroute its new owner is the set to Sherbinin, which has him joining the Red Army in 1935. Thus, when he received his Red Star in 1967, he had 32 years of service. As I recall for the other general, he joined in 1983, and his Red Star fell at about the same time. In the case of Sherbinin, he never received any of the Irreproachable Service medals because he hit 20 years (and thus received his Red Banner) in 1955 (actually in November 1954).

All of the awards I've seen for post-1956 length of service have been "disguised" awarded though - meaning that they were written for the person's good service, rather than purely for legth of time in service. In the case of Sherbinin, he was awarded the Red Star for 32 years of service, being a good officer and doing a good job AND for the 50th anniversary of the Revolution. One award, three things it could have been awarded for. I wonder if he was dissapointed he didn't receive more than just the single award when he possibly qualified for three instead of just the one.

Dave

Here's my theory, and this is merely a theory...

The MM, RS, RB and Lenin were initially bestowed in 1944 as long service awards for 10, 15, 20 and 25 years. So, on 1 January 1957, they stopped awarding them and started awarding Irreproachable Service for 10, 15 and 20 years. So, what happened to 25 years? And beyond?

Good questions.

My thought is this: I think that it was unusual for anyone below the rank of General Major (or perhaps Colonel) to continue on active duty well beyond the 25 year mark. Granted, there were plenty "in reserve" guys who were Lieutenant Colonels and the like for many, many years. I've owned a number of Red Stars for general officers (two of which I posted in the researched awards forum) who received them for "around" 30 years of service. Thus, I believe one can hypothesize that if someone made it to 30 years, and continued on active duty, they received a Red Star. Obviously, the higher the rank, the higher the award - which is the reason for the "birthday" awards of Red Banners and Lenins to the senior marshals and admirals. What I have not seen, however, is an award for 25 years of service, nor have I seen one for service to anyone below a general officer, thus creating the basis for my comment in the first line.

To sum up that rambling... If you stayed 30 years, chances were you were a general officer (they might have had a similar system as did the US that mandated retirement for Captains/Colonels at 30 years of commissioned service) and as a general officer you received a long-service Red Star somewhere around the 32-35 year mark. If you proceeded higher in rank, and beyond the subsquent mandatory retirement dates for lesser ranks, and attained the level of General Colonel, General of the Army, etc., you then started receiving Red Banners and beyond for your service. Of course, there were always exceptions, but I think this might have been a general rule based on the research I've done. Both MONDVOR and GREAKLY might have some other information as they're pretty savvy with this as well.

Dave

In fact, here's a scan of the top of his citation and AC. Poor fellow - officer to private in 22 years!

Dave

Why, maybe whatever turned a Sergeant into a Private. And an "Independent Scouting Company" at ARMY level, where the very young Sergeant was a private? Does that not suggest a PUNISHMENT UNIT, perhaps?

I don't think it was anything that drastic... I think they probably did temporary promotions during the War, and likewise "downsized" after the War. I am currently selling a Red Star whose recipient was a Lieutenant during the War, and on his catch-up AC, he's listed as a Private. Now if you want to wonder about a demotion, there's one for some odd theories......

Dave

I've seen a LOT of researched Glory citations, and that's one of the best I've seen. I love how he wounded the German officer, and then DRAGGED him back to the Soviet positions for interrogation. Can you imagine DRAGGING a wounded enemy soldier anywhere, let alone back to your lines? WOW!

Very cool!

Dave

Pete:

Did you try looking in this thread:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7861

Hope that helps!

Dave

I would like to know how many threads there are on the screwpost. You MAY have a point here.

I'm curious as to why the number of threads might be a indicator for my own knowledge. I've just seen enough screwback orders - including now nearly a dozen that were never worn - that have varying lengths of screwposts, as well as some that have rounded ends, pointed ends, etc. etc...

Thanks!

Dave

Cool! Thanks! Being that they're on the forum is probably why I had most of the numbers in my database, but had never jotted down what they were for! Off to fix it...

Dave

Thanks for your help. 150 USD offer doesn't seem like the right price to take such risk. We'll see what else this person will bring with him next time I see him.

I think you can get a better deal in the West. I just sold one last week that was a 154XXX serial number for $130.

Dave

Drat-- the Wrong Fighter Pilot Guy had a fantastic career too!!!! His all but PAIRED Red Stars and Red Banners from 1951 and 1955 (with a 15 years long service REd Star in '56 meaning those 4 were most certainly NOT long services

Too bad Ed didn't get the citations... I bet that those additional awards were for flight time in night/inclement weather. I've been noticing a trend of these lately!

Dave

Quick question... Order of Red Banner nr 151387... would it make sense that this is originally a screwback converted to a pinback? Any specific things to look out for?

That's probably a long service (Ukaz 3 November 1944) Red Banner that was about 50,000 serial numbers AFTER they started making them as hanging ones.

There are LOTS of really good fakes coming out of Georgia (both cloth and metal) so unless you're getting a really good deal on it (which in that case I'd question it anyway, as the prices in Russia and the FSU are often higher than in the West) or it's just something you HAVE to have, I think you might have better luck buying when you get back to Europe/US.

Dave

No Gerd, your Red Star is not the earliest obeserved.

regards

Andreas

Andreas:

Great data!

I'd like to include this information into my database. Can you tell me about some of the details of the research that has been done on them? Thanks!!!

Dave

Before we get into a he says - they say - I say debate about the authenticity of these awards, I would highly encourage Ed to simply have PMD look at them and we can go from there. Everyone has their own opinions, but we can all agree that PMD is, most importantly, an unbiased and impartial judge of authenticity.

So please, before the fur starts flying...

Dave

Auke:

Without references handy, I'd say it's a May-June 1945 award.

You can check the "serial number" thread that's pinned at the top of this forum to get a more precise date. It's well worth researching!

Dave

Back when I started researching (just before this one was researched) this was all that you got from the archives. It wasn't until about 1998 or so when they actually started photocopying citations.

Dave

Hi Dave

Lets say the Homeland 3rd was added. Just for argument sake.

What would be the point of adding some thing to the award book if it is missing from the group anyways?

For a Homeland 3rd, there's really no point. AND, that serial number was part of the 1976 awardings of the Homeland 3rd, so chances are he got it as an old Colonel.

I've owned several order books with higher awards (Suvorov, BK, etc.) as some people think that adds a lot to a group, even if they aren't there, but to just add a Homeland 3rd... It doesn't add much. I'm guessing it's real, though from the scan (playing devil's advocate here) it looks like the number may have been altered at some point though.

Dave

I've got a parade uniform in my in-law's basement. I forget the rank of it, but I'm willing to let it go cheap if you're willing to wait till the end of January to get it.

Dave

I don't mind it, but that's because I have seen this group for sale over the years and it has the same awards with none added or none missing. Of course, that's not an "exact" theory, but I'm pretty comfortable with it. The Homeland 3rd number looks a little funky though. However, all the other awards make sense for a WW2 fighter pilot. When the research comes back, we'll see!

Dave

Given that he was a reservist, it might be tough finding out anything about him at all. Your best bet would be to write to the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, MO and wait forever to get a reply back from them. Given the Soviet awards, my guess is that he was one of the soldiers who met the Soviets on the Elbe or close to that. Some of them, particularly from the US 69th Division, were invited back for the big Victory Day parades in the 80s and 90s. I ran into a few of these fellows during my research on Soviet awards to Americans for my JOMSA article. Since they weren't given "decorations", I didn't do much research into what they received or when.

Dave