NavyFCO

Do you assume, that the medals and/or the booklet might be faked and doctored?

Christian:

What i'm saying is that in my opinion, one cannot know for certain if a document is doctored until it has been researched. Your document looks good. HOWEVER, in 1999, I bought a group (very expensive at the time) that had a document that was looked at by not just one, but several "experts" (to include several whom we would all agree are experts, not just random collectors) who all unanimously and without question agreed that the document and it's entries were real.

However, when the research came back, it proved that the document had been doctored, and two awards had been added into the book. This was a shock to all, as the book was PERFECT. I mean PERFECT. (I only wish I had good scans of it!)

That was back in 1999. The fellow I bought the group from bought it in 1997. So, if there were absolutely perfect books then, who is to say that there weren't other perfect documents created? When the USSR fell, all sorts of documents were "released"... Although we don't know of any blank Cavalier documents, who says that they too weren't released onto the market? Many awards were released onto the market from the mint as well as many other sources.... Orders of Lenin, Personal Courage, all Homeland classes, Glory 1st, etc...

Who is to say that someone with good sources in the early to mid-90s got a blank cavalier book, bought Gnitienko's group from his widow, threw out the second Glory 2nd and added in a Glory 1st from one of their sources? That might sound far fetched, but if you talk to some of the people who bought out the "big" collections and groups in the early 1990s, nothing was impossible...

Am I saying your group is bad? No. HOWEVER, there is no other documentation except for the Cavalier document to PROVE that it is real. Every other source thus far says that he was given another number Glory 1st.

What I'm saying is this: In order to conclusively prove that the group is good, there needs to be complete research done from every possible angle on it to fully document EVERY award number that is in the group, to prove conclusively that this group truly did belong to him.

Dave

Order of Victory... If you'd like, you can e-mail me the photos and I will size them and post them up for you.

Dave

The adminstrative error is proven, I think, because the set & doc is authentic & genuine. We have to find out WHERE and maybe WHY the clerical mistake happened.

Unfortunately, there's no fast track for award cards...they take time. However, until we can either conclusively prove that his 2nd class was either number 3646 or that his issued 1st class was 1965, I say that we cannot know for certain that the group is "right".

At the moment, we have two sources (granted, one was probably created from the other) that say that his 1st class is number 3646 and only one source that says it's 1965. Given that I have seen more bad documents than I care to think of (including at least one that was officially "documented" as being legit and authentic by more than one top expert) my opinion is against the document with the group until proven otherwise.

Dave

As I remember, Mr. George W. Bush had been also a "real existing" member of the "other" Soviet awards forum for a (very short) time in 2002. He wanted to sell his fathers WW-II-decorations, because George jr. told the members of the "other" forum, that he is short of money due to the ENRON-crash and his father, George sr., allowed him to trade all the glamorous US-Awards.

Uhhh... I don't think the Bush family has money problems that forced them to resort to selling family medals to raise cash. Chances are that someone was falsely identifying themselves. Given that the site owner can see the location of the IP address where the poster is posting from, he probably noted that it wasn't in Maine, Texas or a government one, so he simply deleted the account. Makes sense to me!

Anyway, back on topic...

Is there any chance of researching Glory 2nd 3646? I think it would be worth the $40 cost to get the award card just to verify WHO it belonged to and take out (or reenforce) the thought that the administrative error might have been made.

Dave

I was curious why he didn't get a Lenin, and then at second look at the AC, it's shoved in at the very top! Nice!

Dave

Very nice!!!!!!!!! To a General Major of Artillery! He was fairly well decorated as well... 4x Red Banners, the Kutuzov 2nd Class and a Red Star! (Figure that two RB and the RS were long service - he still earned two RBs and the Kutuzov! NICE!) I can't wait to see the rest of the research!

Dave

Does anyone know of anyone that can do translations of Mongolian? I am sure the question has been asked before, but I couldn't find it in this forum...

I recently picked up a flag out of a now-defunct museum in Russia that belonged to a White Russian unit that was in Mongolia during the Russian Civil War. Or at least supposedly... There is Mongolian text all over the front of the flag, but my foreign language ability is confined to Russia, so I can't read it. I'd love to get it translated at some point.

Any advice would be helpful!

Thanks!

Dave

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Jewish and also German people played an important role in the history of Russia and of the Soviet Union.

This is a bit but Christian mentioned the people of Jewish descent that lived in Russia and the USSR. Starting in the late 1600s, a considerable number of ethnic Germans also came to Russia and the Ukraine, with particular emphasis on the Ukraine with large contingents of German farmers there. I don't know how many immigrated back to Germany (particularly E. Germany) after the War, but I imagine there probably had to have been quite a few just as there were large immigrations from this population during the late 1800s and early 1900s to the United States. Just an added historical perspective that shows a little bit why Stalin was worried about people supporting the Germans, particularly in the Ukraine during WW2 - because many of the people there were ethnically German. Quite a fascinating (and rather obscure) bit of history.

Dave

All:

I am conducting a research project on Heroes of the Soviet Union. I am looking for 600 dpi scans only of the obverse and reverse of personnel file photos of Heroes of the USSR. I can't go into much more detail publicly, but I can say that you will be compensated well for your time. (Trust me, this will benefit everyone!)

My project deadline for photo submission is 1 January 2007.

Thanks!

Dave

Hope you got a pretty penny for that one. A VERY PRETTY PENNY.

oh, and did you wear your shoe out during the kick fest?

YEs, when I sold it I got what I consider "full retail" for the group - it definately did not sell for less than it's value.

Worn out shoes? I'm actually on my SECOND pair of shoes that I'm kicking myself and they're almost worn out as well.....

Dave

Well, considering that I owned that one, I'd be happy to post up some info about it. (Yes, in case anyone is wondering, that is one of the few awards that I do kick myself for selling.) Anyway...

It was awarded to a helo pilot for actions on the Armenian border. Here's the citation:

1. Last Name, First Name, Middle Name: Akifiev, Anatolii Anatolievich.

2. Military Rank: Captain from 4 Feb. 1988.

3. Place of Service: Helicopter Commander, Helicopter Squadron (Mi-8), 292nd Independent Helicopter Regiment.

Recommended for: Order of the Red Star.

4. Year of Birth: 14 October 1962.

5. Nationality: Belorussian.

6. Party Membership: Member of the VLKSM.

7. Service in the Civil War, in later Battles in Service of the USSR and in the GPW (when and where): Served in the Military Forces in the R.A. from 20 Sept. 1985 to 1 Oct. 1986.

8. Have any Wounds or Contusions in the Great Patriotic War: None.

9. From Which Time with the Red Army: From 1 April 1981 to 30 Oct. 1981 and from 1 Nov. 1982.

10. Which Call-Up Station: Vitebskim RVK, City of Vitebsk.

11. Received Which Awards (from which order): Order For Service to the Homeland 3rd Class by Ukaz of the PVS dated 9 Sept. 1986.

12. Home Address: GSSR, Tskhinvali, 2nd Military City, House 11, Apt. 17.

Short Concrete Description of Excellent Military Action or Service.

On 1 August 1990, the Group of Special Purpose Armies of the MVD of the USSR, on two Mi-8 helicopters, while scouting, located a group of fighters in the region of point 3118.9 of Mt. Kachaldar, Nakhichevansk A.O. Because of the skillful actions of the crew of Captain Akifiev, A. A., the helicopter was able to land in poor weather conditions on unfamiliar and unmarked place. Capt. Akifiev displayed high piloting skills, valor and courage, and was able to land the group of soldiers which resulted in the capture of the armed fighters.

During his time of service, Captain Akifiev, A. A., displayed himself to be a disciplined, literate and dependable officer. He is a pilot 3rd class. He has not had any accidents. He constantly works to raise this theoretical level. He has earned the respect of his friends and commanders.

He was discussed at a meeting of the constantly acting evaluation committee, report N. 18 on 20 Sept. 1990.

CONCLUSION: For courage and valor displayed during military duties in conditions with a risk of life, he deserves to be awarded the Order of the Red Star.

Commander of 292nd Independent Helicopter Regiment,

/s/ Lt. Col. A. Vostrikov

24 Sept. 1990

By Ukaz of the Presidium of the USSR on 24 Jan. 1991, he is awarded the Order of the Red Star.

In a Dutch WWII Forum I'm currently having a discussion with a collector who only buys his awards from friends and collectors he really trusts. He doesn't want to buy illegal stuff. Also, he always erases his serial numbers when he posts his awards on the internet. I'm finding it difficult to form my own opinion.

I actually had this discussion with my wife years ago. I told her that ALL of my Soviet awards were illegally purchased (save for one to an American) because it's against the law in Russia (etc.) to sell/export the awards. She was shocked, but then when I told her that the sale of my medals had paid for part of her car, she was more than willing to let this indescretion "slip." So, if the other collector doesn't want to buy things that weren't somehow illegally gotten, then he should avoid collecting Soviet awards, or buy only those from countries of the FSU where it is legal to buy/sell/export the awards.

As far as erasing the serial numbers on the internet, he's being overly cautious. If he's trying to protect the veteran, in all chances they're dead so there's nothing anyone could do to them even if they tried. If someone in law enforcement in Russia really wanted to crack down on veterans who sold their awards, they'll have a great time doing it as I'd estimate that at any point in time there are probably 2000 (probably more) awards they can look at on the internet between this forum, the SAF, the WAF, eBay, my website and any number of Soviet award dealer websites. So, one guy blanking out the numbers on a Dutch forum isn't really doing anything to help anyone, save for making it difficult for others to evaluate the serial numbers on his awards.

Just my two cents.

Dave

Thanks, Dave. I had totally forgotten it had been here before. All those mental Swiss-cheese-holes, you know.

No worries Ed... I have the same issue! The worst part is when I just KNOW that I owned a certain group, and then can't find the scans/photos of it because I was too lazy and never organized the original ones or renamed them from their "DSC....." name! Try sorting through 20,000 .jpg files to find two or three! Ouch!

If the research ever comes back from these, it will definately get forwarded on to you!

Dave

I actually tried in vain to sell that group, and finally worked out a deal with one of the dealers to take it. I'm glad to see it went to a good home.

Here's the original thread I posted on it after I got it:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7718&hl=lucky

I have research requests in for the awards, but I don't think anything will come of them being so late.

Dave

It has always been illegal to sell Soviet ODM from Russia and the Ukraine. They have enforced this law with varying degrees of enthusiasm over the past 15 years. I have seen people arrested at the street market in Moscow in the early 1990s for having Soviet awards, and to this day sellers there are still hesitant to openly display awards. However, there are a few collector clubs who apparently operate quite openly, so I do not know how the law is applied to some, but not all.

Dave

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And it's back! ENJOY!

Dave

ResearchingSovietODM.pdf

Flight Red Star citation:

AWARD CARD

1. Name: Toropigin, Konstantin Pavlovich

2. Military Rank: Major

3. Place of service: Squadron Commander, ?Fighter Pilot 2nd Class? 486th Fighter Aviation Regiment

Recommended for the Order of the Red Star

4. Date of birth: 1921

5. Nationality: Russian

6. Party membership: Member KPSS since 1947

7. Awards received for mastery of flying: None

8. Time of joining the Soviet Army, VMS: Since 15 March 1941

9. Identification document: Serial: AG No. 14557

10. Certificate of flight hours from: 1 April 1950 to 10 February 1956

Aircraft Type Night In severe weather Total

Day Night

Jets: Yak-15, MiG-15,17 57.18 64.23 18.56 140.37

Military Piston: Yak-9, 9P 9.11 9.11

Transport

Total 57.18 73.34 18.56 149.48

Aircraft flight numbers are based on the pilot book of Major Toropigin K.P.

He was granted the qualification of the 2nd class military pilot by the Air Force Commander-in-Chief?s order # 00496 dated 23 December 1953. He is quite well trained as a pilot. He has flown a total of 1,353 h. 20 m. on all types of aircraft, including 383 h. 43 m. on jets. In 1956 he has flown 23 h. 26 m., including 4 h. 55 m. in the daytime under adverse weather conditions, 7 h. 18 m. by night under adverse weather conditions, and 2 h.37 m. by night under adverse weather conditions. His taxiing and flying skills are excellent. He knows how to conduct air combats. He is good at firing. He is trained to act as an instructor in the daytime and by night, under good and adverse weather conditions. He does not lose his presence of mind in complicated situations and makes right decisions.

He is competent in political issues and commands a due respect among the personnel.

Conclusion: He deserves to be awarded the Red Star Order for having flown 149 h. 48 m. and mastered flying techniques by night as well as in the daytime and by night under adverse weather conditions.

Commander 486th Fighter Aviation Regiment

/Razpog__/

10 February 1956

Here's his second Red Banner that I forgot to post earlier...

1. Name: Toropigin, Konstantin Pavlovich

2. Military Rank: Lieutenant

3. Place of service: Commander detachment, 845th Fighter Aviation Rizhskoi Regiment

Recommended for the Order of the Red Banner

4. Date of birth: 1921

5. Nationality: Russian

6. Date joined the Red Army: Since 1941

7. Party membership: Member VLKSM since 1938

8. Service in the war, where and when: In the Patriotic War since 1943

9. Any wounds or contusions: Received a wound in his leg in 1944 and burns to his face in 1945.

10. Other awards received: Order of the Patriotic War 1st Class by Order of the 13th Air Army No. 052/N dated 24 April 1944. Order of the Red Banner by Order of 14th Air Army No. 039/N dated 10 August 1944. Order of the Patriotic War 2nd Class by Order of the 4th Air Army No. 014/N dated 12 February 1945.

11. From which call up station: Lyubimskim RVK

12. Address of record: Yaroslavskoi Oblast, Lyubimskii Raion, P/O Zakovyakino Der. Mashinovo. Father: Toropigin, Pavel Ivanovich

For exemplarily accomplishing missions assigned by his commanders in order to fight against the German invaders, displaying valor and courage, conducting 107 successful sorties, personally bringing down 2 enemy aircraft Comrade TOROPYGIN has been awarded the Patriotic War Order, 1st degree, Red Banner Order and Patriotic War Order, 2nd degree.

Since he was awarded for the last time, Comrade Toropygin has conducted 38 successful sorties to escort ground attack aircraft during offensive operations by the 2nd Byelorussian Front. He has combined escorting ground attack aircraft with delivering 3 air strikes, thus killing up to 10 soldiers and officers, and destroying 1 motor vehicle.

The flight under Comrade Toropygin?s command has conducted 155 sorties to escort ground attack aircraft.

The enemy fighters have not inflicted losses on the escorted ground attack aircraft, for which the flight personnel have been commended 4 times by the chain of command.

During the last air combats Comrade Toropygin has personally brought down 2 enemy FW-190 aircraft.

On 22 April 1945 while escorting ground attack aircraft towards KRAKOW they met 4 enemy aircraft at an altitude of 800 meters, which tried to attack the ground attack aircraft.

While rebuffing attacks by the enemy aircraft Comrade Toropyhin personally brought down 1 FW-190, which fell 6 km west of Krakow.

The written reports of Senior Lieutenant GVANOVSKYI and Junior Lieutenant BYSTRITSKYI corroborate the downing of the aircraft.

On 24 April 1945 while escorting ground attack aircraft towards SMELLEN. Nearing the target they met 4 enemy FW-190 planes which tried to attack the ground attack aircarft.

While rebuffing attacks by the enemy aircraft, Comrade TOROPYGIN brought down an FW-190 which fell some 5 km south of SMELLEN.

The written reports of Junior Lieutenants LARKIN, BYSTRITSKIY and SAZINOV corroborate the downing of the enemy aircraft.

CONCLUSION: He deserves to be awarded the RED BANNER Order for exemplarily accomplishing missions assigned by his chain of command, conducting 38 sorties, bringing down 2 enemy FW-190 aircraft, and skillfully leading his subordinates.

Squadron Commander 845th Riga Fighter Aviation Regiment

Senior Lieutenant /Gvanovskii/

Award order of the Red Banner

Commander 845th Riga Fighter Aviation Regiment

Major /Drekalov/

12 May 1945

Just added some translations. Enjoy!

Could you please tell me why does the document number in the award card and my CSM document are not the same?

It is because she was issued her award document a week after the award card was written. The number on the award card is the number of her temporary award document with the medal. You can see the actual award document number on the front of the award card.

Hope that helps!

Dave

Like all those Arab-Israeli "advisor" awards you've had through the Sinister Auspices of Agent "X" don't count??????

I guess that might be true....

I'm still stuck with a bunch of these post-war wound awards though. Agh! (I think I might be luckier winning the lotto than finding buyers for them!)

YOU got another Czech invasion award in your recent #s stuff?

Maybe.......just maybe........

It will make up for all the dozens of post-war catch up wound awards I've been getting.........

Further to your translation would it be right to that a Prekaz is a battlefield/front award awarded by whichever competent/relevant militaryauthority was around to give that award as opposed to an Ukaz which would be issued by the Presidium during peace time when the awards could be handed out in a more organised and centralised manner.

Yes and no.

Quite a few awards were given by Ukaz during the War, to include all the long service awards, many Lenins, most of the "commander" level awards, etc. Basically, they handled the "big" stuff, though I've seen even Military Merit medals (non-long service) awarded by Ukaz during the War (not very common though.) The Prikaz did serve to limit the number of awards going through the Supreme Soviet during the War though. I believe it was a way to get the awards approved at lower levels to lessen the paperwork burden on units as well as on the central command. Could you imagine all award recommendations being taken back on paper from the front to Moscow? Now that would have been one heck of a task!

For Soviet: the capture and liberation medals were awarded by Ukaz.

Dave