NavyFCO

I guess Paul Schmitt must have ordered a lot for his book Echoes of War!

Actually, that was a compilation of research from about a dozen (maybe more) collections worth of research (including mine.) The info came out of several books as well. The names of the people they came from are included in the acknowledgements section, and the books are in the references section. I'm always happy to contribute everything I've got for a great reference like that!

Dave

Well, I'm glad to see that awards are presented in the same manner across the board... all of the awards I've received have also been pinned on with binder clips as well. What I always thought was embarassing though was being asked for the award back after the ceremony so I could get the one in the box "at a later time...." Now if that ain't insulting, I don't know what is........

Dave

P.S. Yeah, I do think the picture in post #5 is by far the most....interesting....

Why? The research takes the same amount of effort and time (on average) for one item or 500?

Yep. AND, the people in the Archives don't offer discounts (unfortunately.) They are exceptional capitalists! They know there is a market, and the research would be ordered even if they didn't give a discount, so they don't have a problem keeping the prices high.

Dave

The problem is that people can spend a fortune to reunify groups, but what tells you that in the future they won't be sold separately by the future owner.

Absolutely nothing.... I once sold a beautiful group with Lenin and Red Banner, all other decorations, medals and many documents and photos (and his wartime pilot's watch!) that belonged to a wartime Air Force Colonel. It had full research (that I had spent over $150 on!) and was a very nice group. The person that sold me the group was also able to get from the family the man's rabbit-fur lined leather flying gloves. However, Russian customs kept on blocking the gloves from being sent out of the country. I did include them in the price of the group when I sold it (not that they're worth anything anyway) so the buyer expected them.

About a year later, the buyer listed up several documents, photos and all the research from the group for sale by themselves. I blasted the seller publicly (probably not the right thing to have done) on one of the forums for breaking the group up. He told me that the person he later sold the group to didn't want the documents or research, and besides he told me that I had split the group anyway when I failed to send him the flying gloves!!!!!

Another example was an early war Lenin (screwback) that was a single award with the document. Missing from the group was a long service Red Star, that was it. The Lenin was researched and it came back with the "best citation" that the researcher had EVER seen for combat action! Two years later, a major dealer bought the award by itself and listed it up on his website. No document, no research... it was all GONE. Luckily, I am appreciative to the character of the dealer I sent him scans of the document and the research and he included that with the award... but where did the originals go????????? If I ever find the person that threw out that order book, I might well physically harm them. It was so sad.........

A third case was a small group that I sold to a well-known collector. A month later, he listed the jubilee medals and documents on eBay. I told him quickly what I thought of that (they were worth maybe $20... why split them up????) He told me all that he wanted from the group was a particular order because it was a rare variation. I convinced him to keep the group together, and he did. Ironically, not only are we friends now, but he is one of the collectors most involved in reuniting groups....Finally, a happy ending!

So no, there's no way that you can guarantee what will happen after you sell a group... Almost always it works out, but sometimes it doesn't...

Dave

Dave, to have ordered so many researches, do you have special prices that we might don't have for research?

LOL!

Geeeze... Don't I wish! Nope, I pay the same thing as you all do. In fact, many of my research requests were done through another collector for many years. That fellow actually charged an extra $20 on top of the initial price, so I paid around $75 per award researched! Earlier, when I would have it done through people like R&M International, the cost was actually more, but you'd only get a typewritten extract of the citation in return - not even a copy of the actual citation!

I should add up my research costs sometime, but I think I have lost a lot of my old e-mails with the bills... I would estimate that I've easily spent $15,000 (probably more) on research over the past 11 years.

So nope, no discounts for the old-timers.

Dave

I forgot to add... I have researched many people whose awards I do not have, to include famous generals, foreigners and the like. That adds a few more into the pile.....

Dave

I think I can say that I probably have requested more research than any other member (at least "posting member" - I don't know who all is a "lurker" on here...) Maybe 500 individual pieces and groups, I can't say for certain...probably many more than that.

I RARELY ever sell an award without researching it. At the same time, I RARELY ever keep awards after they're researched, and this has been the case since I started researching awards back in 1995. My enjoyment from collecting comes from finding out who the "nameless" awards belonged to and bringing that history to life. Once that's done, they go onto their next (hopefully loving) home.

So, my philosophy is: buy, research, sell. I AM NOT saying that's what I think everyone should do, that is simply how I have conducted my Soviet collection. Unfortunately I started collecting Soviet awards in 1992, and sold many before research became possible. Ahhhh well.....

Dave

One other thing to note... While it's worth protecting sources because of some of the formerly classified items and personnel files, I don't think it would take anything more than a blinding flash of the obvious to anyone concerned with the Russian archives to know that things that probably shouldn't (according to their rules) be released out of the archives are being released from the archives. All one has to do is search through the researched groups part of this forum or visit a few dealers at the SOS or OMSA show to see multiple examples of what types of items aren't supposed to be out, but are.

Dave

I still fail to understand why researchers should get in any trouble unless the information is still classified and is not authorsied to leave the archives....

As I understand it, it's legal to do the research in the Archives. You simply walk in, request an award card and/or citation or service history, and you can read it there in their "reading rooms." Even when I was there as a foreigner ten years ago the research assistants were quite accomodating (at least as far as they could reasonably be...)

However, to most "average" people, the personnel records are still off-limits, as are any classified award cards and/or citations (the latter includes most modern citations that you see...) The researcher has the ability to legally obtain such documents (after they are santized and declassified) and then forward them on to you. How they can get them, I am honestly not sure, but they can.

Is there a risk that the Russians could close down all research? Not really. (Although anything is possible over there, but it's not likely.) However, I think there might be some risk to getting out the personnel files and the formerly classified materials, and that's the part that's worth being cautious with.

Hope that helps.

Dave

Now his own website as in "Service Available"

As far as I'm aware, it will be a "how to" and "service available" website. That way, no more cloak-and-dagger or anything like that... just go to www.xxxxxxxx.com and folks can be on their merry way to research!

Now, I think it's really neat to have this.... but somebody(ies) else has all his other stuff

So here's the question (once again playing devil's advocate here, not my own opinion).....

Would you have passed on this award given that it was split from a group? Obviously you didn't because you own it. It's true that it's rather bittersweet to only own one award from a particular group, but in the chance that the other awards have all but melted into the collections of other collectors who may or may not care about the history of the person behind the award, at least that single Red Banner is being cherished and cared for and the memory of that man is being preserved through that.

Like I said, it's bittersweet to a fault, but I don't think any of us would have passed on buying it simply because the other awards are out there and they aren't with it.

Now my actual opinion...

In all seriousness, in my personal experience, I regularly passed on groups that were missing an award back in the day when groups were cheap and plentiful. I was not interested in anything other than a group that was entirely complete, even walking away from some technically "complete" award groups that were simply missing their jubilee awards.

Now good groups have all but dried up and I'm grateful for the few that I kept in my collection. What I wouldn't do to turn back the hands of time and take in some of those groups that I was too haughty to own previously.

I have restored my share of groups (one particular group, to an admiral) took close to five years to reassemble, buying one auction here, and there, on eBay and elsewhere. By the time I got done with it it was an exceedingly robust group that I moved along to a new and loving home for it.

At the same time, I've seen several groups that I researched and sold later split up! I've even had the chance to buy back some of these awards after being split, but it would have ripped my heart out to look at the remnants of the group that I once owned as whole and realized that it might never again be as how I owned it, so I passed.

For Soviet.... I think you misunderstood my sentence that I wrote, as I worded it poorly and the sarcasm that was included in it didn't convey well. What I was simply trying to portray was "the extreme" where none of us bid on say, a particular Red Banner because it was being split from a group. In our self-righteousness, we would withhold our bids in order to simply prove a point to the seller that he could not get financial gain by splitting the group.

At that point, our hypothetical auction (or whatever) would close at a price well below what the value of the award actually was, and quite possibly the award would move off to one of the more unscrupulous dealers who would then simply use it as a platform to make financial gain from and sell it to someone else.

Basically, in the end, none of us would "win" in that situation... We might prove a momentary point to a seller, who probably wouldn't be changed in his ways, and the medal would be wisked off by someone only interested in what material gain they could get from selling the medal, and quite possibly the medal (and its associated history) would be lost because WE WHO RESEARCH AWARDS and appreciate the person behind the medal looked down our "righteous" noses at the "despicability" of the seller and wanted to prove a point to someone.....

In other words, we'd all lose out. We wouldn't make any lasting impact on the seller, and in the long run, the award - and the person behind the award - may well (and I emphasize MAY) be lost to history....

Remember this: every single award belonged to someone who earned it, and it is up to US to preserve that history. Even if we don't like the ethics of a seller and disagree with how they might run their business, do not look poorly upon the award, as looking poorly on the award itself is failing to appreciate the person to whom it belonged.

Just my three cents....

Dave

I know we spend a great deal of effort trying to keep researchers "under cover"... will this book and that back cover photo blow opportunities down the road???

No, especially considering that the researcher is planning to launch his own website on Soviet awards research here in the not too distant future.

Dave

OY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't worry about it too much. I had one listed for less than half of that on Amazon and it never sold (there was one listed for way, waaaay, waaaaay more than this one currently at the time I listed mine.)

I was hard pressed to get $150 from one minty copy I had and $75 from a used one. I really doubt this guy will get his asking price... though it only takes one buyer!

Dave

DO NOT BID ON GROUPS BEING TORN ASUNDER.

Why not? Here's my thought... If none of us bid on groups being broken up, they will be bid on by others who don't care about the awards and their history. If there are too few bidders on an item, it will sell for less than it's actual value.

Thus, that means that the pieces of the group not only went to someone who didn't care about their historical value, but didn't pay the actual value of the item either.

Here's the deal: It's a case of simple economics. If you don't buy (bid) on groups that are broken up, the seller still will sell the pieces, and chances are, they'll still make a profit off of them. Thus, the people selling the split groups aren't hurt by your boycotting of their auctions, and in the long run, you're simply losing out on what could potentially be a truly historic piece.

True, it's a shame that the group got split up, but isn't it at least somehow better to know that the items that were split from the group made it into the collection of someone who could appreciate them?

These metal tokens may well be the last remaining memory of that brave individual, and to discount buying them simply because we don't agree with the ethics of the seller is only hurting those of us who will appreciate their sacrifices for their country.

Just (yet another) different point of view....

Dave

To also play devil's advocate as Jeff did...

At what point can a group be broken?

First, the military items are split from an estate. With the entire estate, they form part of a family's history.

Second, the uniforms are split from the rest of the paper and medals. Most uniform collectors aren't all that interested in the non-uniform items.

Third, the photos and the "misc" documents are split from the medals with their documents, because most medals collectors aren't interested in piles of documents.

Finally, you have the medals and the award document left.

Would it not simply be a natural progression to next split the document from the group, and then split the group up, piece by piece?

I know this sounds utterly hienious. However, how many people on this forum own a complete Soviet award group that includes all of the person's documents? How about all of their documents AND their uniforms? What about all of their additional personal items????

I can say with great certainty that these groups are very, very, very few and far between.

Thus, at some point, every single one of our groups has gone through at least one, if not two, of the above steps, and those single awards we own have gone through all of the steps. In other words - at some point, 99.999% of groups out there were "broken" at some level.

Just a thought from another point of view.

Dave

P.S. NO, I DO NOT CONDONE BREAKING UP GROUPS, in case anyone should misunderstand my post!!!

Gerd-

Now that you have the names, you can request the research on these guys and figure out what they received. I look forward to the results!

Dave

VERY nice!!!! That's the kind of labor group I love - you can't top that by much!!!

Everyone, everyone....

I have a vested interest in this group because of the fact that I bought it, researched it and sold it orignally. Therefore, I would say that I am biased towards it. However, Andrew does bring up a good point about the asterisk, which I had not noticed before and which is a reasonable point at which to pick at to discern if the photo and/or stamp is real or not.

I personally found the discussion to be very educational, and I thank Andrew for that (thanks.)

However, before we go any further, let's just all take a step back, bring it down a notch and take it easy.

Ed has requested the personnel file on the person, so we'll see if that comes back and if it comes back with a photo.

If the photo is his, then we can further investigate the stamp and I believe that might make for a good thread by itself.

If it's not his, then I'll happily take the award back from Ed for a full refund if he should want to part with it. I definately look forward to when the research comes in!

Simple as that.

I think we can all put away our chains/pick axes/pitchforks and torches and take a break on this thread for a while. Let's learn what we can, but not at the expense of anyone's reputation or relationships between collectors.

Thanks for reading.

Dave

Well, if Ed's not happy with the medal and doc, I have no problem taking it back and keeping it in my collection. As with everything I sell, it's always backed with a "100% lifetime guarantee of originality." It would be nice to actually have some proof that the photo is wrong rather than a hyphothesis though (e.g. the photo in his personnel file does not match that of the one in the book.)

I still have yet to hear anyone's reasoning as to how someone who got a book without photo would just HAPPEN to guess that it belonged to someone the right age and demenor (and quite possibly physical build) as the actual recipient, when the award could have been awarded to anyone. Luck perhaps?

Incidentally, I still think it's real, which is why I don't have a problem keeping it for myself.

Dave

You mentioned "well known dealer" that you bought this medal from. But he might be not the first link in the chain of dealers this medal traveled through.

Actually, I said one of my most legit suppliers, NOT a well known dealer.

I bought this from a fellow who worked for the US government (cannot say exactly what he did in this forum) and who travelled extensively in the former USSR during the period 1992-1994. He bought a considerable amount of Soviet uniforms, awards and the like during that time, much of which came directly through contacts that he established via his interpreters/Russian collegues which led to several beautiful groups that came directly from veterans as well as dozens of documented single and single awards. He stopped collecting right afterwards, and only recently pulled out what he had and offered what he had to me. His provenance is 100%, and considering what I saw in person at his house, I completely believe him.

If the photo was added, it was one of the very, very early bad documents. I still can't get past what the coincidence would be of a photo of someone the right age and the right category of person would be in a document that could have been to ANYONE.

Like I said above, until research proves me wrong, I am certain it's 100% legitimate.

Dave

The S/N for the Glory 1st is #11.

That's funny. I know who used to own this group as I tried to either buy it from him or sell him my two Glory 1st groups (numbers 12 and 13) so that there could be "three in a row." We (unfortunately) were never able to work out a deal. It's interesting to finally see the group though.

Dave

Not to be biased since I used to own it, but I think the photo is legit in the book. He looks to be about 20 years old, and with the "uptight" buttoned up shirt with no tie, I think he looks quite officer-candidate-ish. Besides, I got it from one of my best legit suppliers and for the price I paid for it, I don't think there was any monkey business going on.

My thought is this: Without knowing who Burdin was (since I did the research) what would the coincidence be in adding a photo of a uptight, healthy young-looking man to an award book with stamp when the vast majority of these award documents are for WW2 catch up awards? I think the chances are very, very unlikely.

I am (and will continue to be until proven otherwise) happy with the document.

Dave

Ahhhh... but the important question is.... Why does the content of the research not effect the price?

Because honestly a lot of collectors don't care about the research. The only time that research will increase the price of a Glory is if it's one to a sniper, or to an aviator, or has a very unusual citation that has a avid group of collectors, such as for feats in Finland, or partisans, etc.

Of the ones I sold for $90 each, here is a snapshot of the citations:

Glory 3rd to Corporal XXX, XXXth Rifle Regiment. During the battles for the village of XXX on 13 July 1944, he neutralized three enemy machine gun positions and killed 12 Germans, allowing the infantry to advance.

Glory 3rd to Sergeant XXX, XXXth Rifle Regiment. On 17 September 1944, he crossed the XXX River and was the first to burst into the enemy trenches on the other side, capturing four German soldiers, and allowing the regiment to accomplish its mission.

Glory 3rd to Lance Corporal XXX, XXXth Rifle Regiment. On 6 April 1942, he was heavily wounded during the offensive near XXX, and lost his leg.

Glory 3rd to Private XXX XXXth Rifle Regiment. In July 1944 in XXX, he killed up to 20 Germans with his mortar and thus repulsed the enemy counterattacks.

Glory 3rd to Senior Sergeant XXX, XXXth Independent Tank Destroyer Division. On 6 September 1944, he was the first to burst into the town of XXX and engaged in street fighting. He captured two enemy soldiers, and killed a group of enemy machine gunners in a house. Even though he was wounded, he was not evacuated until the mission was complete.

Glory 3rd to Guards Sergeant XXX (who had been wounded five times during the War), XXXth Motor Rifle Brigade. On 29 January 1945, he fired his weapon at point-blank range and killed eight Germans who wanted to take his artillery piece. He prevented them from doing so.

None of them were to "good soldiers" but yet none of them were to yo-yo swinging T-34 gunners.

Dave

My first one, with its reaearch was about UsD150, which I was told at the time was way. way, over its market value. Maybe it was, but it was worth it to me.

Here's some irony for you... Back in the late 90s when Glories were a $15 medal (and yes, they were at one point) research on them would cost $55 per medal. So, a $80 investment. I RARELY ever sold a researched Glory 3rd for less than $175, and often they'd bring $225 and sometimes even more! Basically, every time I researched a Glory I knew I could make a $75-$100 profit.

Fast forward to 2006. Glories cost $40-$50 each. Reserarch still costs $55 each, so a $105 investment. I just sold my last researched Glories for $90 each!!!

Now tell me what the market has done there???

Dave

what about a (theoretical) case of an officer, who got in 1937 an RBL as an manager of a factory and had been been an officer during the GPW (receiving some military awards). How detailed is his pre-war RBL mentioned in the archives?

Many thanks for sharing the highly interesting group of film producer Ivanov with us . If Ivanov had been active as a movie maker in the GPW - what I am sure, due to his (old) screwback Lenin -, than he wore during the GPW a uniform - something between a Lt. and a Maj. - like all the other writers, journalists, photographers and movie makers. Then he was member of the Red Army. The Red Star is an award all the propaganda people got after the GPW. Maybe he got the ORB for filming a great action under dangerous circumstances. Maybe he got the Lenin for a movie just before the war and the RBL T 3 for another movie just after the war. What is exactly written at the stamp on the photograph - is it of an war commissariat?

Christian:

As for your first question, the mention of the RBL for non-military actions prior to the War would probably not amount for more than a line that mentions something to the effect of "Awarded the Red Banner of Labor in 1937." Maybe, just maybe if you were lucky, it might say "Awarded the Red Banner of Labor for the successful management of a factory in 1937."

That's about it.

As for the movie maker, he was actually one of the directors of MosFilm (or was it LenFilm?) during the War, so as far as I know he didn't don a uniform during the War. The Lenin is from 1939, and his Red Star is from late 1943. His Red Banner dates from 1968. I sold the group because it wasn't "complete"... it was missing an October Revolution.... now I wish I hadn't sold it! Oh well...

Dave