NavyFCO

For example, here is a group to a civilian film producer that I once owned. He had the Lenin, Red Banner, Red Banner of Labor and Red Star. That I am aware of, he never served in the military.

Dave

I'm sorry I posted my post before it was complete, as our building had to be evacuated because of a fire alarm....

So in summary:

If an officer was awarded a labor award while in the military, the citation should be available.

However: If an officer received a labor award that might not have had a citation anyway (e.g. October Revolution, FoN, etc.) those are normally not available.

If an officer was nominated for a labor award while in the military, but received a military award instead, the citation should be available.

If an officer (or enlisted) was awarded a labor award after they left the military, these were normally not recorded.

The only way that I have been able to research labor awards to military officers was because it was part of their file. I do not know if the Archives are able to determine the recipient of a labor award based on the number. I honestly doubt that they can, as those awards normally did not travel the same route as their military counterparts.

So as far as the RBL that you have, I would say that the chances of being able to research it through the military archives are extremely slim, if not impossible. Chances are it was one that was either a replacement for a lost award, the person was "purged" and later rehabilitated, or the recipient had some need to trade it in for a hanging award at some point in time.

As far as a division of awards between military and labor, I have personally seen examples of almost every "military only" order given to a civilian for labor. These include:

HSU

Red Banner

Red Star

I have personally seen examples of every labor award given to military officers.

I have never seen a civilian earn a "commander" award, the Order of Glory, Homeland, or Patriotic War, or the medal For Valor or For Military Merit without having previously served in the military and earned the award.

Hope that helps!

Dave

Christian:

The answer is yes, no, and maybe.

Seriously, with all the groups I've researched, I can say that a military officer (I've never seen an enlisted or NCO with a labor award given while in the military) who received his labor award while in the military WILL have a citation or at least an annotation in their record about that award.

The most common award I have found for this is the early BoH, which was awarded quite frequently up to about 1943 (or so.) I have owned three groups with that award, that has been researchable and there has been an actual citation for it in the archives.

For awards after the GPW, I have not seen a labor award given out to an officer where the citation was in the file. In other words, I have seen many written citations for labor awards, but almost always these labor awards were "upgraded" to their military equivelant, and thus their citation was kept on file in the Archives.

I have researched post-GPW groups to officers who had remained on active duty when they received labor awards that had labor awards that had no citation, but the award was listed on the award card. I assume that these are the labor awards that were NOT "upgraded" to their military equivelent, and thus the citations were not kept on these awards.

I have researched numerous groups with post-GPW labor awards that were given after the person had left the military, and these labor awards are not normally listed on their award card. I have seen one exception to this, and that was where the officer had left the service, but in 1959 was awarded a "catch up" military award and had earned a labor award before 1959. He then had his labor award annotated on his award card, even though it was not given through the military.

I still throw out the question: Which was or greater relevance to the success of the Soviet Union, being the random first man to cross some river in central Poland or working for decades to increase food production to feed the people?

Ed,

I can't agree more. I'm particularly a fan of labor groups from the immediate post-war years... Imagine having to physically rebuild the infrastructure of over half your country! Just amazing what they were able to accomplish in 15-20 years after the end of the Patriotic War. It's like the one group I used to own that belonged to a "propaganda" movie producer...if that soldier who was the first to cross the river in Poland had watched one of his movies before the crossing and the movie gave the soldier the "patriotic ferver" that he needed to cross the river, whose award had more meaning? The person who produced the movie that caused the deed, or the person who actually DID the deed? Rather interesting discussion, and way, waaay, waaaaay OFF TOPIC.

OoV - No worries, my friend.

Dave

Don't diss the labour awards. They also meant something to the people receiving them!! Also have some respects for the collectors that like these less 'valourous' orders too!!!

Jim:

Don't get me wrong, I actually like labor awards. I've owned six complete HSL groups, a few single HSL stars, a Labor Glory 1st group, and many, many, many documented Lenins (with huge paper groups to indicate that they were labor awards) RBLs (& screwbacks), FONs, BoHs (& screwbacks), etc. Hundreds of them if combined.

Unfortunately, while they are good looking and were given out for probably impressive deeds, it's difficult for me to really appreciate them as much as I should because most of them are simply impossible to research and find out EXACTLY what the person did to earn the award. I have gone to great lengths to find out more about the recipients. In fact, one HSL group I had (with three Lenins and an Oct Rev) I even tried to get information from his local libraries and archives in the former republic that he lived in, all to no avail though.

Since I like to know exactly what awards were given for, that has pulled me more over to military awards, because nearly all of them are researchable.

Don't think that I have something against labor awards. Not hardly! It's just that I would personally RATHER own a group where I knew what the awards were given for rather than one that leaves much of it up to guesswork. Perhaps if we were discussing this five-six years ago when everything was affordable, it might be different and I'd have just as many labor groups as I do military ones (as I did at one time) but now with the cost of things as they are, I'm forced to focus on one area, and that's in the military realm. I still do have my "favorite" labor groups in my collection though...

Just my thoughts....

Dave

The thing that suprises me is that you would be willing to pay a lot of money for Afgan Award, but not for a Rare Labour award

Yep, you're absolutely right. I wouldn't buy a Labor Glory group because I've already had one. It was nice, but, unresearchable and thus... just another medal (set of medals) that was really expensive.

Now, if I could find an Order of Glory for Afghanistan actions, that would be THE ONLY ONE people have seen or is known.

So what's more rare? The only one known of a certain award or an award that is buyable if you look for one long enough???

Dave

Ironically, the "big news" at the moment is a professor who is being criticized over his belief in Bigfoot.

I thought a second to myself, and considered that post-GPW awards of the Order of Glory are much like Bigfoot. There is only one person that I know of who has claimed to have seen one (a Glory awarded for actions post-GPW) but like those few who have actually "seen" Bigfoot, there is thus far no proof that they actually exist.

I'd love to see a real Bigfoot, just like I'd love to see a Glory awarded for actions after the GPW.

However, I've got a feeling I might see Bigfoot first....

Dave

Paul Schmitt, in Echoes of War, mentions three Orders of Glory 3rd Class with SN in excess of 800.00. They all are awarded for WW2 actions. The highest SN is 807.879.

Ch.

And they say that the highest observed is in the "high 900,000 range" in The Comprehensive Guide. However, I have personally never seen (or owned) any higher than 791431, which was awarded on 3 April 1992, but it was a delayed award from 1944.

Dave

With research from the archives it still is a high amount to pay for the Glory 3rd but assuming it was Afghanistan it would almost be justified.

Acutally, if it was issued for actions in Afghanistan, I would be willing to pay up to 10x his asking price for it.

Dave

O.K., Igor's price tags are rather high, but what is your opinion about the price-gap between Glory 2cl & Nevsky?

It is difficult to pin prices on "rarity." There were 460,000 Lenins awarded during the USSR (some sources say that there were up to 600,000 awarded!) At the same time, there were 550,000 Red Banners awarded. Red Banners in common variety run $100-$125 each. Lenins run $700-$1000 each (and more.) There was only 90,000 (or less) specimens difference between the two awards in actual awarding, but does that account for a 7 to 10 times difference in price? Even when the Red Banner cost $25, the Lenins still ran at least $450 - an even greater price differential. Some people say that the Lenin's price is dictated by the precious metals in it and that's partially true. But has gold and platinum doubled in price in the last three years? (I don't think it has, otherwise I'd be selling off my gold coins....)

There are quite a few other comparisons that you can make (say a Hero of the USSR and a Hero of Socialist Labor, and their price difference, for example!) but the fact still remains the same - just because something has close rarity stats doesn't mean that it is valued the same as another award.

Just my opinion...

Dave

Of course only research would ever answer this....but $115 for a Glory 3rd......high serial number or not....Afghanistan or not..... we're on the road to perdition.

Jim:

Actually, the price isn't that bad, especially considering the unusual-ness of the piece. I've paid some insane prices for late Red Stars that boggled my mind, but when one considers the number of living recipients with awards that were given in the late 80s and early 90s that still have their awards, the high numbered ones are quite rare.

Dave

It's a very nice late Glory 3rd, and in fact it's the latest one I've ever seen. HOWEVER, I can 99.99% guarantee you that it is not for Afghanistan. It's almost positively a catch-up award for someone from WW2. (I will admit that I am tempted, VERY tempted to buy it as it's the latest s/n that I've ever seen that might have been awarded!)

With regard to sellers in general (particularly on eBay) and awards "for Afghanistan." This is a personal hot-button of mine (be prepared for a rant...)

LOTS of sellers claim their awards are "for Afghanistan." There's a seller on eBay right now who has a Red Star that he claims was awarded for Afghanistan. Unfortunately for him, one look at the thread with serial numbers on this forum would show him that his Red Star was actually awarded IN 1953!!!! Only about 20-something years BEFORE Afghanistan!

My hobby is researching "modern" (e.g. 1960s-1990s) Soviet awards and I have only found ONE seller who thought he might have an award that was given for Afghanistan, whose award was not only within the numerical range for being an Afghanistan award, but after research actually WAS for Afghanistan. Out of 50+ Red Stars, about a dozen Red Banners, and about 20 Homeland 3rds that I've researched that were "possibly" Afghanistan-era awards, I've found a whopping four awards out of all of them.

All that to say: Buy the medal, not the story (unless it has research from the Archives.)

Dave

Labor Glory 1 - ~714 awarded

But, it's a modern LABOR award. And there just isn't the same market for labor awards as there is for military ones. True, there's a quick market for republic and early Soviet labor awards, but it's just not the same for modern ones, even if the rarity would seem to dictate otherwise.

Dave

Despite the price of that highly interesting Glory & Valour group, it might become a real "gem" for research: 4 pure battle awards to an NCO .

Actually, it is already researched.

Dave

I personally thought the group was expensive at $750. Only a couple months prior to when this was sold originally, I sold a documented and researched Glory 2 & 3, For Valor, 2x Military Merit, Red Star and jubilee OGPW1 that I felt happy to get LESS than that for (after trying to sell it for months!) I guess prices have really skyrocketed...somewhere...in the past few months.

Dave

As far as the MOH being made of gold, Jeff is right in that they aren't. However, I met and had a long discussion with a person who worked with the Army awards board and who actually was the one who regularly inventoried and signed for the inventory of MOHs in current Army stock. She said that they had "at least one" solid gold MOH in the safe where the MOHs were kept, but that it was a custom made example when the Army awards board was evaluating the possibility to make the award out of gold rather than out of the current material. So, they aren't made of gold...save for one that's sitting in a safe somewhere...

Dave

That's a very nice photo. Navy is still my favorite.

I have a book on the MOH published by the Arny around 1949. It says the medal is made of Silver. Anyone know if the unissued pieces are silver? Is the current MOH silver?

Dan

I have been able to be the caretaker of a very well polished WW2 Navy model that had all of the finish polished off and it was a brass-ish type material. Maybe even some sort of brass-alloy or something like that, but definately not silver. Of course, the Army MOHs might have been made of something different...

Dave

Hey Doc ... the Green Bible ... actual awarded pieces. Examples:

1,019,351 - 01.05.45

1,140,351 - 23.08.43 - 283 Rifle Division, Artillery Scout

1,223,615 - 12.12.42 - 7 Air Army

1,347,453 - 11.05.45 - 130 Mobile Aviation Workshop Unit

1,610,627 - 06.09.43 - 122 Independent Howitzer Artillery Brigade

JUst as some examples .... they don't really follow any strick chronological order

All:

Just remember that these are Prikaz dates, which can vary from the actual award date of the decoration by up to several DECADES. I have one particular Red Star in my collection with a 3,5XX,XXX serial number that was awarded in June 1945... EVERYTHING on the citation and award card indicates that it was awarded in 1945. However, the only tell-tale (and the truth) was the 1959 date on the award card, which shows when it was actually awarded. Thus, you can fairly confidently say that this award number falls in the 1944/45 time frame for awarding. As to when the actual Prikaz was written (or in the case of long service, the Ukaz) it's impossible to know except through research.

So Doc, don't chuck Shishov & Muzalevsky as that's still an indicator as to GENERALLY when these were actually physically AWARDED, not when the original Prikaz/Ukaz was signed.

Dave

At $14.9K it'd better be.

Is that what these are really running these days? Granted, I haven't seen a Cavalier for sale in the past year (though I caveat that I haven't looked for one either) but it just seems a little "above" (e.g. double the price) of that last one I saw (in 2005) for sale. Now of course the prices could have taken off on these too, but these have always seemed to be tough to move as there just isn't the same market for labor awards as there is for military awards. I'd like to be enlightened to the "market reality" on these if anyone knows.

Dave

GREAT one, Ed!

Some years back I came across a seller with a cardboard box full of never issued Red Stars and (DOH ) did not note what those serial numbers were.

"Final" awards like this have got to be a gamble--

and you've hit the jackpot here!

RickL

I've had about a 50% research ratio with my late Red Stars thus far. Of the ones that have info that does come back, there have been a few really great pieces (like this one) but unfortunately the majority has been....

Guess it's all the gamble though!

Dave

I actually didn't request the personnel file for Burdin, though I did for the other awards. It probably should be interesting though... makes you wonder what happened to him down the road...

Dave

I've owned a good number of duplicate awards over the years ranging from a Glory 1st and Glory 3rd to several Lenins, a Red Banner, several Red Stars, etc. I am always wary of supposed duplicate awards though, particularly with the medals "For Valor" and "For Military Merit."

Why am I cautious with these two? Because post-War issues of these medals were unnumbered, and thus has supplied thousands of "blanks" for unscrupulous sellers with a metal numbering kit and a Cyrillic "D" stamp to make all of the "duplicate" issue medals that they want. There is one particular seller on eBay who sells many of this kind of "duplicate" award - even though we all know that his groups (and many of his awards) are outright fakes. I'm not saying that these duplicate awards didn't exist. However, I think there are probably more fakes of these awards as duplicates out there today than there are real ones. Caveat emptor...

All of the awards I owned that were duplicates were previously unnumbered awards that had been numbered either by hand engraving or by stamped numbers. None of them had been previously numbered, then erased, then renumbered.

For about the first ten years that I collected Soviet awards, any award that had a serial number erased and then replaced was considered to have been tinkered with or messed with. I returned at least three or four nice groups to sellers because one (or more) award serial numbers had been erased and replaced. However, about three-four years ago, someone decided that these awards were okay and legitimate re-numbered duplicates. I am still not certain what caused this revelation, but every dealer I know of (even the most reputable ones) have sold these awards with scratched out or removed serial numbers and new serial numbers added as "legitimate" replacement or duplicate awards.

I am not really all that comfortable with "duplicates" unless it was a previously unissued numbered award (like a Lenin or Red Banner) that had never been numbered, and then the new number was added on it at a later time. These awards are not all that uncommon and they do exist out there. I am not comfortable with the legitimacy most people have given awards with erased and then replaced serial numbers. I always wonder why the Mint would do that when they undoubtedly had stocks of original, unnumbered awards that they could use as replacements (and which they did use, as is evidenced by many legitimate duplicates that I have seen and owned.)

I am especially curious why the Mint so crudely erased some serial numbers (like with a rough grinding wheel) and then crudely re-engraved serial numbers on some supposedly "legitimate" duplicates when at the same time the same Mint carefully removed some serial numbers, re-sand blasted and pebbled the revese, and carefully re-stamped some serial numbers. At the same time, the same Mint simply issued unnumbered original award with the number stamped on them. Some very curious food for thought...

My two cents...

Dave

They are still awarding Soviet decorations if they had not made it to their intended recipients during the period of the Cold War. The Russian government still has stocks of Soviet awards and these are being awarded even now to veterans and their next of kin. The majority of these awards are "catch up" awards from the Patriotic War that either never found their recipient or the recipient was killed before he could accept the award.

Dave

When I get a moment, I'll post some items there. In addition to my posthumous award collection (which has just grown again - thanks Gilbert!) I also have a large collection of Soviet death notices as well. Some of those are nothing short of sobering....

Dave

After collecting Soviet awards for fourteen years, my personal opinion is this:

1 - Start buy buying good reference books, and study them. The first book you should own is the Comprehensive Guide by McDaniel and Schmitt. Learn about the awards, what they look like, and what they were awarded for.

2 - Determine what you want to collect. Do you want to be a collector who has one of each award, or perhaps every variation of certain awards? Do you want to research the awards and find the citations as to why they were awarded? Do you care if that particular award can be traced to the exact recipient, or are you just interested in the rarity of an award? I know collectors in each of these camps. None are bad or wrong, just different. It will probably be after your first few awards that you determine which camp you're in. Unfortunately, with the prices of awards these days, you won't have the benefit of buying one of nearly every award, and then deciding later what is interesting and what isn't, like I did when I started collecting.

3 - Become an expert in your area. There are far too many sub-areas of Soviet collecting that one can become an expert in, and as I said above, given the cost of many awards these days, it's simply not affordable to most to branch into too many sub-areas. If you're going to collect Red Banners, study and learn everything about them. If you're going to collect only decorations from the WW2 time period, it's a broader study, but learn everything there is to know. The same goes for post-War awards, campaign medals, etc. Pick a topic, learn all you can about it, and then branch out into other topics.

Unfortunately, with prices these days, it forces most people (especially new collectors) to specialize in one area or another. That's not bad, but just a fact of life. I think there are many, many fascinating areas of Soviet collecting, and the more one digs into them, the more one learns. Even though I've been collecting Soviet awards for 14 years, I am still learning new things regularly, even though I've found my "nitche" areas of collecting and am concentrating on those (posthumous awards and post-War Red Stars.) To me, that's a great way of keeping the collection alive, interesting and most importantly, affordable on my mere-mortal salary.

Just my two cents.

Dave