NavyFCO

By the way, at pre-war period Lenin was not very valuable award comparing to Red Banner. One military bomber pilot received Lenin for Finland War and complained to his wife about that. He said that his gunner got Red Star, his navigator got Red Banner and he received Lenin. "What the hell" - he said. "Even a milkmaid can get Lenin, but I'm a military pilot". He was right. At the end of 1930th hundreds of Lenins were given to collective-farmers for their labor achievements.

Wow! Now doesn't THAT story turn any list that we might make on its head!

In contrast, I just sold a group of awards that had been purchased directly from the veteran, a retired Air Force Colonel. According to the original buyer of the group who sat down and talked with the veteran for a while, the Colonel was exceedly bitter to the military and the USSR because while serving in the 1950s (still don't know what he was doing exactly - research is pending) he "only" received a Red Banner while all of his peers received Lenins for the "same thing."

I don't know what that "thing" was, but it's interesting to see how before WW2 a pilot complained about receiving a Lenin, yet 15 years later, another pilot was left with years of bitterness because he DIDN'T receive a Lenin.

It's interesting how people's minds change. Same award, same position in the "on paper" hierarchy, but vastly different points of view...

Dave

What are we doing here? Are we trying to examine what people (or whatever rank) felt at the time or are we just pulling guesses out of out anatomy and asserting their truth? In the absence of primary sources and the authentic voice of the people we speak about (or around), we may be no more than channeling soldiers long gone in the assumition that their views must be the same as ours (simply because we are RIGHT). I know that capturing the views and voices of non-senior officers in any historical military is difficult, and doing so for the Soviet military during the GPW may be downright impossible. Memoirs, diaries, letters are in too short suppy to give us any hope in examing these questions seriously and professionally.

As a corrective against any "he said, she said" tone, I ask: To what degree can the patterns of "upgrades" and "downgrades" of award recommendations give us a glimpse at at least some of the answer to this question? Dave??

Ed-

I absolutely agree with you. It is impossible for us to fully consider all the variables that were considered when awarding decorations. Not a single one of us has seen (or will ever see) all commander's intents, directives, etc., that dictated the awarding of decorations. To add to that, we don't know if they worked on a quota system, or something else like that which would have dictated what award someone received. We often look at the upgrading and downgrading of awards on a citation as perhaps something with sinister meaning towards the recipient. In all likelihood, the explainations may well be more straightforward and above-board. It could be that some commanders held some awards in higher regard than other, whether that be based on their personal experience (they may have been turned down for a similar award, for what they considered as something more deserving) or they may have seen far too many of X award issued, and attempted in their own way to uphold the integrity of the award system.

Furthermore, other factors come in to play here. Not a single one of us can 100% know everything that was going on when an award citation was written. Was that award citation written for something completely different than was on the actual citation? (I have personally written an award recommendation like that before...) Was there more to the action than just that single event? What was the weather like? What were the defenses like? Many, many things we simply will never know. When reading unit histories about the War, I know of several units where nearly everyone in the unit received some sort of award for an operation, based on the person's rank and involvement. In that case, who determined who received what award? These are things we simply will never know.

Back to the original topic of this thread though. Was there an "unofficial" hierachy of awards as far as respect from soldiers was concerned? I am absolutely positive that there was. However, this hierarchy varied as much as soldiers (in a broad sense) varied.... what someone's peers, subordinates or seniors thought about certain awards most certainly differed based on those persons' own experiences.

Although it would be nice to have such a list, I personally think that any list that we could come up with would be both the right list and the wrong list at the same time. What could be the hierarchy for a Lieutenant Colonel of the Railway troops would be different from an NCO in an artillery unit. The same could be said for people within the various branches - artillery, rifles, tanks, partisans, etc. Having my own personal decorations and awards, I can say that some of them were much more impressive to me BEFORE I received them, but after earning them, I was not nearly as in awe of that particular medal/award as I once was and thus the "value" of that award - or my personal hierarchy has changed from what it was 8 or 10 years ago.

I am simply not certain how we can scientifically put a list together and say that list is the "official" list for one particular group of people. There are facts that we CAN know for certain - such as the types and variations of awards and so on that are "hard" facts. But once we attempt to determine into the thought proceses of people now long dead, we can never be able to say with any accuracy that we have the "final" answer.

Just my two cents (again.) Let's keep it civil, folks....

Dave

Guys:

I'm willing to throw a curve into the entire discussion, based on my experience.

I don't think there was a "set" hierarchy of awards that was common to all Soviet forces. I think it varied greatly on the person's rank, military specialty, and their unit.

For example, it is impossible to compare what the hierarchy of awards would be between a Private and, say, a Senior Lieutenant or Captain who was a pilot.

For a private, if he was to earn an HSU, that was about as good as you could get. Period. Because he was a private meant that he earned it through exceedly meritorious action on the ground.

At the same time, a pilot could receive the HSU for flying 100 missions by the end of the War. Definately an impressive record amongst pilots, to be certain. However, would the private who spent four years of his life living in the mud, snow, and dust, while the pilot lived in tents or buildings on a runway agree that his HSU meant the same as the other?

In much the same way, lower awards range in meaning. I have seen For Valor medals given to bakers and blacksmiths for nothing combat related. I have seen the same medal given to soldiers for clearing mines or hunting down a sniper. Which one meant more to the person? Would the same unit that gave the For Valor medal to the blacksmith for fixing horseshoes give the same award to another soldier who led a charge into a village fighting hand to hand?

And how did the award criteria differ from unit to unit? Were Guards units given preference for awards? Why does there seem to be more valor awards to artillery men than to rifles soldiers? Perhaps a higher survival rate? Or did the artillery branch have more liberal award criteria? We know that commissars were "supposed" to be well decorated, to the point of actually having a directive that dictated that policy. Did the fact that the commissar received a Red Banner for his actions in distributing Party paperwork to the soldiers on the frontline diminish the same award given to the combat leaders that were on the same line?

Consider also the combat history of units. A For Valor medal for combat against Japan in a unit that only saw combat against Japan for a week would be very impressive. A For Valor medal in a unit that served on the frontlines against the Germans for three straight years would probably not hold the same meaning. Were some units more stingy with some awards? Was the commanding officer of a unit who had received a Red Banner fighting in 1941 liberal with their awards of Red Banners in 1945? Maybe yes, maybe no.... There are hundreds of factors that we just cannot be certain of.

In through the 1950s and 1960s, the awards changed considerably in meaning. Although they stopped awarding Red Stars and Red Banners (etc.) for long service in December 1956, they were awarding significant numbers of Glories and Red Stars for wounds and disability all the way in to the early 1970s. Because a double amputee received an Order of Glory in 1968, were the wartime Glories diminished? We don't know.

Unfortunately, we are (thus far) a bunch of westerners trying to make sense of something that happened 60 years ago in the Soviet Union. I think every time we try to make a list of what award was important to who, there were probably thousands of exceptions out there to that list in reality. So before people get worked up about whose list is "right" and whose list isn't, we should consider that quite possibly all the lists are right for one segment of the Soviet military, but at the same time isn't the right one for another segment.

My two cents.

Dave

By the way, just an update on my book (which wasn't intended to become a book, but has...) Anyway, it's now at 295 pages and is pretty much "done." Book and cover art have been delivered to the publisher and I should see a proof in about three weeks (or thereabouts.) It is hardcover, and the price will be $39.99 a copy. Unfortunately, there are no photos in the book as that would have doubled the price of the book to about $75 a copy - and I was trying to keep these as affordable as possible. Knock on wood that the proof doesn't have too many issues, and I hope to have the first few purchaseable ones out by the end of the year. The book is very limited run - only 100 copies, though more can be printed if required. I'll let you know how it looks when I get the proof.

Also, in the original topic of this thread, I have a couple of the "Red Bibles" that I've picked up for sale in case anyone needs one.

Dave

About three months ago I sold a 1st Class (two digit) and 3rd Class (1st Class in 8 of 10 condition, 3rd class in poor, but real - not cast!) with document for $6500. I figured that's about a "reasonable" price not buying from a dealer but from a collector. I also feel it was reasonable as several collectors snubbed it because they thought it was priced too high, until a dealer bought it - and I felt he got a reasonably good deal on it. I guess pricing is all in "the eye of the beholder." I personally don't think there are too many buyers out there for single Glory 1sts for $7K or above....at least buyers in this country.

Dave

The docs arived today some are different than orginaly posted

I'd be quite peeved if I were you... I have had this happen to me before with sellers on eBay. I once bid quite well to get a 1970s issue Order of the Red Banner. Several days later, I received a second chance offer from the seller for the same medal. I corresponded with them to make sure it was legit, and then I went ahead and bought it, as I figured the original deal fell through with the first buyer. When the medal arrived, instead of being a high 500000 series serial number, it was a 300000 series that fit perfectly into an early 1950s long service Ukaz awarding! I complained to the seller, but as far as they were concerned, the "lower serial numbered award" was worth MORE than the higher one! (even though I had bid nearly TWICE what a long-service Red Banner is worth!) I tried to explain to them that I only collected post-1956 awards, but they could not understand that at all. I finally was able to convince them to refund my money (minus postage and fees.) Ouch!

Dave

For fun, I added up how many Red Stars that I currently own that are waiting for research....

28!

That will be one heck of a research bill if they all came back at the same time! (I've had worse though!)

For statistical timing purposes, the oldest request date of them is 21 Feb 06 (now almost 7 months later.) There's another from 26 Feb 06, and five from 12 Mar 06. The rest range from May to September.

Dave

From 16.10.1941 till 15.03.1942 Pasman lived in his home area which was occupied by the Germans. During that time he was a partizan. After he had gotten to the Soviet side he got demoted to private and put into an NKVD camp for a check "gosudarstvennaja spetsial'naja proverka". Only on 30.03.44 he got reinstated.

If the translations are correct, I can definately see where this guy fell out of favor. I've owned quite a number of groups (around a dozen) where the officer was encircled, but escaped to join fellow Soviet forces and nothing adverse ever happened. It looks like this guy was encircled and just....went home. He became a partisan but it might not have been for a while after he just left his unit during the encirclement. I think I'd punish the guy as well if I were the authorities - there were thousands of soldiers who escaped encirclement and didn't just go home....

Interestingly, on a side note, I always had understood that officers and soldiers who had been encircled were punished. However, when I was living in Russia the last time the father of the family I was living with was writing a biography with a veteran about that veteran's experiences during the war. This veteran had been an engineer officer and had been encircled, escaped, hoofed it back to Moscow and then went to Berlin and so on... really quite a fascinating wartime career. I asked them about being punished for being encircled and it was one of the few times I have been looked at where someone genuinely looked at me like I had a third eye. The veteran was very adamant about the fact that he had never had any reprocussions from his adventures during the war, nor had the father of the family I lived with heard of such a thing. Given that the father had grown up in an NKVD camp in Siberia because his father had been a White Army senior officer, I don't think he was simply one that had been brainwashed into thinking that punishment didn't exist... Just an interesting side note...

Dave

I just ordered research on a six digit Red Star that was identical to this one this morning. So, I guess I can say I think it's worth it... why not?

Dave

From what it looks like on my monitor, it looks okay. I like duplicates that look like this (an original piece with the duplicate number stamped on it) rather than a piece with the number rubbed out and then replaced.

Dave

The 13 February 1947 command will add a bit to the general's details. Do you have this unit in your Orders of Battles volumes Gerd? I'm curious as to what an Independent Guards Rifles Brigade DID-- and where. tt SEEMS a "step down" for Muzykin as a former divisional commander, so I wonder if THIS "brigade" was more important, somehow.

I bet that this Brigade was actually the size of a "real" Brigade, vice the "real" regimental-sized divisions that he commanded during the War. I don't have this unit anywhere in any of my OOBs (or at least the ones I can find!) so I'm guessing it was probably made up post war. Perhaps one or even two divisions were rolled into it.

Dave

I guess it doesn't really worth asking for the award card of the soldier, because I have already the order book. Does it worth to ask for the personal file of the soldier? What can we normally learn? Thanks for your help!

If you're going to ask for research through the normal researcher, you will have to get the award card. In order to avoid buying the award card, you need the date and place of birth of the recipient, which are not in the order book. Also, the award card will verify if the group is complete or not.

As far as the personnel file, why not? If you're planning on keeping the group, and don't mind the extra investment, this can tell you a lot about who the person was. It has their biographies, their service reports, etc. Lots of good stuff!

Dave

But isn't the SOS a "general militaria and all other stuff" show and HEAVILY German 1933-45? Personally, I value the ODM focus of the OMSA.

But we're getting -- sorry.

What's the point of a thread unless you can go down at least a dozen rabbit trails?

In my opinion, the SOS isn't heavily German. I think it's about as even as you can get amongst all nations militaria. In fact, I'd say it leans more heavily US than anything else.

Dave

Never been to a SOS, but went to the MAX for the first time last year (as it was but 20 miles away and I knew two dealer-researcher-friends would be there). Woo, lots of Nazis . . . and a lot of Third Reich collectors too! Even if it were still close and I knew my friends would be there, I'd probably give it a pass.

The SOS is about 2x as large as the last OMSA I went to and is much more international than the MAX (thus the reason I don't go to the MAX.) After going to the OMSA show, and then going to an SOS later, I made up my mind to only go to the SOS unless the OMSA was someplace local (which is hasn't been since Philly.) All the major dealers who set up at OMSA are also set up at the SOS. This last year, I recall that there were at least seven dealers of Soviet awards there with significant stocks.

Dave

Dave, I think we can add another important point - let's cooperate! We are all collectors, not dealers. So we can help each other and share the knowledge we have. Together we can resist even advanced fake makers

Amen to that!

Try to become your own expert. Start from simple things and then proceed further. Collect pictures and scans, compare them. Look for "watermarks". Read all possible literature. And after some time you'll greatly improve your skills.

I agree with everything Andrew said. One more thing I can add is to take every opportunity that you can to visit shows and dealers who have large stocks of awards. There are some dealers to be wary of, but the large dealers such as Igor M. have a fantastic selection of awards at almost every show. There is a Germany-based dealer who regularly has several hundred documented groups in his inventory. Make a point to go to the OMSA show or the SOS, where there are many tables of Soviet awards from many sellers. Take the time to look at the awards, and if they let you, take the time to look at them closely. Look at the documents closely. Compare what you see with some dealers with what others have. The best way to learn is to handle as much as you can. Take your loupe with you, and maybe a caliper and scale. Even if some of the sellers have an occasional bad piece (which happens) over time you'll be able to tell which ones they are, simply from handling as many as you can.

Just my two cents.

Dave

Sure, fakes are about, but I am very afraid that Soviet collecting is getting infected with the "Third Reich Disease", and arguing that "Everything I have is REAL, and if your specimen differs from mine then it is FAKE FAKE FAKE!"

I think part of that stems from the fact that anyone nowadays can sit behind a computer and make judgments about stuff that is posted up - basically becoming an "expert"... at least in their own mind. I can tell you that I found it very ironic that on another awards forum, a person was expelled for posting up numerous fakes and then arguing about them. I went to another forum, and lo and behold, this same person that was kicked off one was the lead forum moderator for the very same type of forum! Now go figure!

In this business, I would say that there are only around six people that I would trust making a call on orders and medals. (There may be more, but they aren't "regulars" in the same collecting circles as the rest of us, and there are undoubtedly quite a few in the FSU that we'll never encounter.) Decorations and badges are an entirely different field, and to be honest, I don't know of a single person (in the non-FSU world) that has the "all knowing eye" on all the different kinds of badges.

But as far as orders and medals, I can say that four of the six are members here (and two are known dealers.) One posts regularly, two occasionally post, and one simply "lurks". Of the two others, one doesn't do forums (that I know of) and the other is on another forum almost exclusively. There are other folks on the forums with varying degrees of expertise, and with particular areas of expertise.

All of the "experts" that I am thinking of are folks that have been doing this a long time - I would say at least since the mid-1990s - and have seen literally thousands of awards. And that's the key to being an expert: Not just having seen a lot of awards on forums online, but actually having felt and held these awards in person, checking them out with a loupe, measuring and weighing them.

For the rest of us, I think many of us have our opinions, but I don't think that any expertise should be taken based on that, which I think frustrates a lot of people (like stogie). I think that we might all want to take a look-see at what we all do post to see if we are posting (and making fake/real declarations) in or out of our realm of expertise and experience.

I know for myself, I've owned probably 800 (or more) Soviet awards and have seen double or triple that since 1992, but at the same time, my interest has been on documented groups and research. Other than the occasional tip-offs I know to look for on certain awards, I'm pretty much out of my element when it comes to declaring something fake or not. Now experience with documented groups? That's a different matter entirely, and that's where I don't mind making broad declarations just because I have 14 years experience in that area.

Anyway, enough of that soap box. When Stogie posted up the center of the RB, I had a pretty good feeling of what he was going to be posting down the thread. Perhaps my ESP is just acting up these days...

Dave

From the larger photo, the award looks okay to me, but I am no expert (I am aware of your opinion on "Soviet experts") I still don't like the shadow around the hammer and sickle though. Is there a chance that the screwpost was replaced? The heat from that would cause "shadowing" similar to this.

Dave

Looks like one of those ones with the "ghost" lines around the H&S. The enamel though is better than most that I see with this though... From my monitor, that could all be shadow from the scan... The silver parts certainly look to have about the right wear and tear for a wartime piece though, and the red enamel looks about right given the lighting. Please post some pics of the rest of the Banner.

Where are you finding these great groupings?

One of our mutual friends actually has found quite a number of nice (and quite rare!) groupings like this. I was lucky enough to see these all in person back in April, but at the same time I was offered two posthumous award groups, and since that's what I primarily collect (and didn't have the money for everything) I passed on these. Sometimes it would be nice to win the lotto so you could afford everything! But at the same time, if I were to buy up everything and keep it, what would everyone else get to put in their collections?

Hi Paul:

Too all: Thanks for the compliments! (No, this group is not for sale, and probably will never be.)

He isn't wearing an academy graduate badge that I remember in his later photo, so I assume that he either 1) did not go to a qualifying course or 2) he may have actually had to apply for one when they were first created and he never bothered doing that for a retroactive one. I have actually never thought about that!

As far as his OGPW2, I really can't answer it. I've owned several groups to veterans with combat awards (including Red Banners, OGPW1 and the like) and they had received 2nd class awards. I think for some areas the vet was simply given whatever was available. Perhaps they ran out or perhaps the issuing facility simply gave him the same as his wife (since she only rated a 2nd class.) No one has yet interviewed any vets to figure out how exactly these awards were given out, so we don't know if they were mailed, if someone came to the vet, if they had to go to the local regional military office and pick it up in person or what. Might be an interesting thing to find out if any of the other members have any local vets that they could ask!

Dave

Two questions, firstly how come he did not have a rhomb from the Frunze Academy ? Was he on a lower level course and hence not eligible for one of the white higher academy badges ?

Secondly, I thought that veterans who had been awarded decorations received a 1st class OGPW in 1985, but he has the 2nd class. This is not the first time I have seen this, which seems to go against the written regulations. Anybody able to shed some light on that ?

Regards,

Paul

ps. Beautiful group, it would look wonderful in my collection !

Fake!

Just kidding. This is a very nice group that I had the pleasure of seeing a few months back. If only I had lots of money dear Ed wouldn't be the new owner... A very cool group!!!

Dave

Right, also got the same, from "World of Medals". But who the heck is this "WoM"?!... And how did he get everybody's email addresses?!... A member here? A guest-spy?!...

It strongly smells like another scam

Dolf

Interestingly, I didn't get anything from him, either being part of this forum, part of the SAF or having my own website of Soviet awards. Rather interesting.

Dave

When I last lived in Russia in 1996, there were two things I wouldn't buy: Orders of Courage and Otlichnik badges, simply because I couldn't positively tell the fakes from the real ones because even then (10 years ago) the fakes were so good of both of them. So unfortunately, I cannot help with why this one is (or is not) fake.

However, I will add in my two cents to say that I've been offered so many blank, unissued order books of the several newer variations that I would tend to look at any single award with order book that was purportedly issued in the late 80s or early 90s as suspect until it could be proven otherwise.

Dave

Which restaurant was the first McDonald?s in Moscow? Street?

It was the one at Pushkinskaya. I don't know the exact street though. The one across from Central Telegraph was next, followed by the one on Arbat Street (or I might have these two backwards) and as I was leaving, they were opening up the "drive through" out in the north west part of the city.

Dave