NavyFCO

Just picked up a nice little Budapest group and with it came this medal and these documents. Anyone ever seen one of these medals before? It's a pretty neat one, with the text of the document in Cyrillic written on the reverse - though it is obviously Hungarian made.

Dave

Yeah, I do feel bad for the wee bug...

I prefer to think of these in terms of "icky". Like the red enamel being "icky", the gilding being "icky", the engraving being "icky" amongst other things. The actual cast looks pretty good though. If they fix the cosmetics, I think they might start churning out really good Red Banner fakes from scratch.

Dave

Contrast the two Patriotic War citations with this, for Kremnev's missing Nevsky.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

Yeah, that's a pretty boring citation, that's for sure.

What's odd is that 1) I don't think that the Nevsky was that often used as a unit award (I can't remember one off the top of my head) and 2) I didn't think that battalions (unless they were a separate battalion, which this one wasn't) were eligible for unit awards. I'm open to correction, but I think I'm right.

Quite odd.

By the way, his Nevsky isn't technically lost... It's somewhere in the government archives, to be certain...somewhere...

Dave

but take a look at the number he claims to have on the ORB!!

666320

I e-mailed the seller and asked the question about the award number. It is incorrect in the auction description. The one he has is for a long-service Red Banner from 1956/57.

Dave

And I love the stories he tells from the recipient's records. I really wish they'd do a book just on a ton of those. I could read them forever!!!!

After PMing with Dan and from this thread, I had a thought come to me... Would anyone be interested in a less-formal book with citations for awards? While a formal (e.g. nicely published with hardback and all) would involve more time than I have, I would be willing to self-publish a book (somewhere around 100-125 pages) that would just be of translated citations for awards.

Were I to do that, would there be any interest in that? Based on the cost of printing my thesis (167 pages) with the same binding as Charles Sharpe's order of battle books, it would probably run around $40 a copy (or so).

Before I embark on putting a hundred or so citations into one document, I'd just like to see if anyone were interested. The citations aren't doing much sitting on my hard drive, so if someone (well, more than someone!) could be interested in them, I'd be happy to do it.

Dave

I own the others in this series, even though I'll never own the awards that they're about (Ushakov, Nakhimov, etc.) The photos were so great, the information easily readable enough that I just had to buy 'em! Guess this is another to go out and get.

Dave

Where's that Dave?

www.forvalor.com

Perhaps you've seen it before?

And I love the stories he tells from the recipient's records. I really wish they'd do a book just on a ton of those. I could read them forever!!!!

For the past five years or so I've thought about doing a book on just those - the citations for various Soviet awards, from HSU on down. Unfortunately, I just don't think there's a suitable market out there to make it worthwhile to a publisher. Until there is one, I just put the stuff on my website and "that was that"

Dave

That's rough with a photocopy (an EASY way to manipulate documents, btw!) but I'd say that all of them save for the first Red Star are fake.

Right?

Dave

From the crappy scan, it looks like someone just erased the serial number on the award and then found their metal stamping kit and put on a new number. It does strike me odd that someone would do that for a medal with normally very little interest.

Dave

Unfortuantely, no one comes to mind, and unfortunately also, this rack is a bit too "ordinary" to pin to a single fellow. Lots of possibilities with this guy... Could have gotten his HSU as a pilot during WW2, though given the lack of lower awards, it may well have been a 1968 "catch up" HSU award that a good number of general officers received for being...well...general officers in 1968 after having fought in the War. Most of these fine gents were political officers, and thus the awards were routed up that chain of command and (of course) approved.

Of course, he could have been one of the few guys that picked up an HSU post-WW2 for "real" action, such as Budapest or one of the many other little wars that the USSR got themselves into... without knowing who it was, you'll unfortunately never fully know for sure...

Looks like he got an MM and RS for long service, but didn't join early enough to get his RB for long service. That's pretty cool, though an OGPW2 and two RBs for a pilot during the War wasn't exactly common... seems more something that a political officer might have. Of course, he may have done something spectacular as a young officer that garnered him these lofty awards as a Junior or Senior Lieutenant, so there's a possibility there.

As for the lack of foreign awards... remember, they weren't REQUIRED to wear the foreign awards, so he technically could have had them and just not worn them on his field uniform. Most field uniforms to general officers that you find are near mint anyway, suggesting that these were rarely worn, and thus (as one can imagine) the officer probably invested as little of hard-earned cash as they could into these uniforms - just putting the bare minimum on them.

Just my two (or more) thoughts...

Dave

Probably a good "museum" copy... What do you think ?

Ch.

That's what it looks like. The last time I was there they had Zhukov's on display and it was literally jaw dropping... which is something I wouldn't exactly use in the description of this one! Normally, they are kept in the Gold Fund (is that what it's called???? I can't remember exactly) next to the Armoury in the Kremlin.

Dave

Thank you Gerd. Do you know what can I learn about my group except that the medals belong together? I mean I only have one numbered order in that group and it doesn't worth researching it. And if I ask the citation for the wartime Red Star, I'll have a citation to a medal that doesn't belong to me.

Soviet:

You can get his citations for his wartime Military Merit medal and Red Star at the very least - though you might as well get the copies of the Ukazes for the long service MM and RS (even though you don't own the latter).

I'm not sure what you mean by "if I ask the citation for the wartime Red Star, I'll have a citation to a medal that doesn't belong to me." From the photos, don't you own his wartime Red Star? I think you're just missing his long service one, correct? You may end up with the Ukaz (no citation with that anyway) for the missing long service Red Star, but...bummer. Not much you can do about that.

For this fellow, I'd also request his service history and if you can afford it, his personnel file. Why not? You like the group so you might as well.

No, you won't be spending $210 on this group... that one had about 8 award citations in it, plus a 50+ page personnel file. Remember, that was for researching a highly decorated general! (And, I should note, was the extreme price I've ever had to pay for research... it just happened to be a very large pile of research!)

The researcher doesn't live in Moscow. You're best off probably sending money to him in the US when the research is done.

Hope that helps.

Dave

Will be in Moscow for a day or 2 in 2 months time - best spots for QUALITY awards shopping?

You can buy all the QUALITY awards you want... but if you don't have a good way to get them out through customs, you're going to be out some funds... (that's from personal experience)

Dave

By the way was $210 worth the money in long run?

...

How long does it take to get it?

To answer the second question first, it can be as short as one month (don't count on that) or as long as a year (or more!) I've been trying to research an "unresearchable" Red Banner of mine now for about five years... keep putting in the request in hopes that someone, someday, finds who (or at least what unit) it belonged to. The average is about six months - and then figure about a month after you pay for it to make it through the registered mail system from Russia.

As far as the $210 worth of research, the group was to an HSU General Major and it included his Gold Star, 2x Order of Lenin, 4x Order of the Red Banner, with the last two being "numbered" (including one awarded for service in the Spanish Civil War) Order of Suvorov 2nd Class, Kutuzov 2nd, 2x Red Stars with all documents for everything (he died in 1968, so no jubilee medals.) Total price was $11,500 which was about "top dollar" for it five years ago.... but then I didn't get the money to my contact in enough time, the seller changed his mind a couple times about selling it, and then I think someone else offered more money for it.... Needless to say I didn't get it. About a year later it was offered again to me for $14,000, and I jumped on it again, but it had again been sold before I could get the money over to Russia where it was. C'est la vie as they say!

So, was the $210 worth it? Yeah - the group was magnificent! Did it work out? Unfortunately, no... It was cool to read through the research though

Dave

1. How much does cost

2. What do you ask for, I have seen medals for sale with partial research and full research what is the difference?

Well, let's see... The thing that you'll first have to get with either of them is the Award Card, which will run you about $40. Then, each citation will run you another $15. Figure translation for each of the citations, and expect another $15-$20 per citation. So, in total just the award card and citation with translation will run you about $80-$90 (about 48 ukp) when all is said and done.

What's the difference between "full" and "partial" research? I would consider a single award with just the award card and citation "partial" research. It's partial because there's a lot more there that isn't with the award. If you request "full" research, you'll get the award card, citation for the award PLUS all the other citations for the other awards in the group (if there are any) plus the service history of the individual (another $15 or so) and the personnel file, which runs another $20-$50 depending on what's there. I've had "full" research run me up to $210 for a single group, and that was without translation!

For a single award, if you are planning on selling the award somewhere down the line, it makes most sense to just get the award card, single citation and probably the service history. If you're planning on keeping the award, I'd go for the full research on it. I know there are differing thoughts on "what to order" by other people on the forum, but given that I research upwards of 50 (and often more) awards per year, buying full research for every award isn't financially viable, so I stick with the bare minimum.

Just my two cents...

Dave

Got mine (and ordered Gerd's) today!!!

Yep, it's a great book... everything that you'd expect it to be and more! DEFINATELY worth purchasing!!!!!!!!!!

Dave

And the reverse. Bit more information on this one.

Here's the other half of the above document that was in the Archives that came when I researched the award...

Front...

And the reverse....

Here's another that was delivered with the award. This is the temporary document to Colonel Gavril Sharikalov. He was the Commander of Artillery for the 130th Lativan Rifle Corps.

Front:

Here are some other documents for posthumous awards...

This one was given with the decoration to the mother of Private Puzan. It states that her son was KIA, and was awarded the OGPW posthumously. Interestingly, it was awarded with document number 210212, which when I bought the award I thought sad that it was missing. It wasn't till later that I realized that this temporary document was actually THAT document! Silly me...

Dave

As with posthumous HSUs, the rights and privileges accorded a Full Cavlier were also extended to a posthumous Full Cavalier's NOK. Like the posthumous HSUs, however, the actual Order of Glory 1st Class was not presented to the NOK.

I know of one group (formerly owned by a friend of mine) that was a full cavalier of the order of Glory group (with all three awards) wherein the Glory 1st had been awarded posthumously. What I do not know is if the Glory 1st had physically been awarded before or after the limit on returning governmental awards to the state upon the recipients death...

That was the "one" Cavalier group that I know of that I was referring to - where the medal itself was actually presented to the family after the recipient was KIA.

Dave

Gerd-

e-mail sent.

Dave

Rick-

For posthumous awards, there were only two choices IF the command wanted the next of kin to receive the award... the OGPW1 and OGPW2. Other awards COULD technically be awarded....BUT, that was a pointless excercise since the award would never be issued, simply being returned back to the State. I would doubt that this ever happened. I know of posthumous HSU title awardings and one occasion of a posthumous Glory 1st, but I don't know of any other awards that were awarded posthumously - mostly because it would have merely been a paperwork exercise and probably considered to be a waste of time by a combat unit.

Incidentally, for a posthumous HSU awarding, no awards were given, but the next of kin was given the rights and priveleges of being the family of an HSU recipient - so that one was a pretty "good deal"... even if no physical awards ended up in their possession.

Dave