NavyFCO

Interesting though, in the discription of the group, the seller states that it was "purchased some years ago from "Liverpool Medals" in England"

Ouch!

Not to knock our dear British friends, but during the 1990s there were a TON of fake groups that were churned out by someone in Britain. I don't know if it was a Russian (it probably was) but at one point, I couldn't find a good Soviet group amongst any major medal dealer - they were THAT pervasive! Unfortunately, all of those have been sold, and re-sold, and re-sold again, so the fact that they were originally from England has all but been lost.

Granted though, the folks who bought the groups back then still did pretty well. I remember turning up my nose at a fake group that included both a real Ushakov AND Nakhimov medal (along with other awards) for a "hefty" $750 USD... Now imagine how much that could bring, even though the group itself was bad!

Andrew (MONDVOR)... Do you think it would be possible for you to do a thread with photos of the fake books you have??? I have always thought of myself as pretty savvy, but I seriously never knew about the snowflake (asterisk) on the CCCP seal till just now! I look forward to it!!!

Dave

Thanks, Dave,

Please let your friend know I have used his image and will happily remove it if he wishes. I am very sensitive to such issues, though I realise that in these days of Google spiders crawling all over anything that ever shows up any place on the web becomes fair game for unfair poaching.

Ed

Ed-

Rather gentlemanly of you, but I don't think he'll mind. He had earlier posted photos of it on the Soviet Awards Forum (by the way, now open for visitor browsing, in case anyone is interested) so chances are he doesn't mind the photo being shown (so long as you aren't trying to sell it!)

Dave

What say we form a pool of guys, maybe 5-6 who have a medal or two, find out who will do the research for us, and send all the details to the guy. Done that way it may be easier than all of us amatures wondering till kingdom come if we will ever get around to it.

Just form the pool and drop me a PM. I'll hook you up with the researcher (there's only one) and it will be done!

Dave

Ok, here comes the 'newbie' question: Is there anything in particular which makes a Russian medal desirable because it is for a KIA?

What I mean is, whilst I can understand why a Brit medal to a KIA is more valuable, because there is more research potential and details available via the CWGC, is there a similar situation with Russian soldiers KIA?

It's desireable because it's extremely unusual. Soviet families often not notified till years later that their loved ones were killed during the War. Sometimes, they were never notified at all (that was a well-flogged benefit of being a member of the CPSU - they would guarantee the soldiers that if they died their families would be notified!) And all that was just to send a small slip of paper to the family to tell them that their father/husband/son/daughter/wife was killed in action.

With the majority of the USSR overrun by the Germans, countless towns and villages destroyed, hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of civilian "non-combattant" casualties, the USSR was a mess during the War with regard to finding people - thus the reason that death notifications often took years to find the family, even if they ever did.

Now imagine this... Someone is killed in action, and it's tough for the unit to get a slip of paper to the family. In order to award a decoration to someone posthumously, they have to not only do all the admin work to get the award approved, but then they have to send it via courier to the family; tracking the family down, risking his/her life, etc... Thus, when someone was awarded a posthumous award, that means that they did something really special, that was unusual enough to warrant all of the trouble by the command to make sure they received an award.

As far as being unusual, I know of five OGPW1 that were awarded posthumously, and two OGPW2 that were awarded posthumously. I own all five OGPW1, you own one of the OGPW2, and the other OGPW2 was sold in the late-90s and I have no idea where it is. As far as the five posthumous OGPW1 that I own, they include awards to:

- Commander of Artillery for the Latvian Rifle Corps (killed in an artillery barrage, ironically. I also have all of his son's medals from the War)

- A self-propelled artillery officer who led a charge into retreating Germans and was killed during the charge

- A self-propelled artillery officer who led a charge on foot into a German-held strongpoint

- A self-propelled artillery private who fired into attacking Germans until he was overrun

- The fifth research is enroute (any bets that he was artillery????)

Only two of these awards have their original temporary documents that were awarded with the decoration to the family, the rest were all discovered through researching lots and lots of awards....

Other than Soviet awards to Americans, this is the other area that I "specialize" in, and are the "keepers" in my collection (yes, Rick Research, I DO actually keep something in my collection!) So, as you can imagine, I'm willing to pay just about anything to acquire new ones for the collection.

Dave

The second group (with the Red Star) is fully documented, and is owned by a close friend of mine. A very nice group to a South African! He served as a transport pilot ferrying materials to Stalingrad.

As far as sources, the first bar was sold on one of the big British auctions. I believe this is the item description:

BRITISH MEDALS AND DECORATIONS

AWARDS FOR GALLANTRY AND DISTINGUISHED SERVICE

K.B.E. 2nd. type, military, C.B. Military, neck badge, silver gilt and enamels, D.F.C. (GV1- award for the N.W.F. 1937), I.G.S. 1908, bar N.W.F. 1935 (F/L), I.G.S. 1936, bar N.W.F. 1936-37 (S/L), 1939/45 Star, Atlantic Star with France and Germany bar, Italy Star, Defence Medal, War Medal, M.I.D., 1937 Jubilee, 1953 Coronation, Russia, Order of the Patriotic War, 2nd. class badge, Greece, Order of the Phoenix, 2nd class, neck badge and breast star to Air Marshall Sir G. Tuttle, R.A.F. His obituary 13/7/1989 records ?Air Marshall Sir Geoffrey Tuttle, who has died aged 82, was given the task in June 1940 of commanding the R.A.F?s first photographic reconnaissaance unit. At that time the unit was suffering from the after effects of it?s foundation by the Australian adventurer Sir Sidney Cotton. Tuttle?s arrival at Heston introduced just enough red tape to satisfy the Air Ministry. When Tuttle arrived in February of that year Cotton was still in command, but shortly afterwards his bloody minded unorthadoxy became too much for Whitehall and Tuttle replaced him. Tuttle repaired relations with Whitehall but continued to encourage a certain buccaneer spirit among the crews of his unarmed aircraft, notably a handful of pink painted Spitfires. At this stage he was the only unit commander in the R.A.F. allowed to select any pilot he wanted; allowing his pilot?s plenty of scope for initiative, he refused to have irksome paperwork imposed by them. By the end of July he had nearly 1000 men under his command at three RAF stations.. It was Tuttle and his pilots who first made a name for the Mosquito. Charming the first from De Havilland in 1941, he obtained hitherto unheard of results as his Mosquitos roamed enemy skies, their speed giving them a great advantage in the business of gaining photographic intelligence. Determined to obtain more Spitfires, he staged a mock dogfight in front of the King and Queen and flew a Spitfire against a Mosquito to demonstrate the latters superior speed and manoeuvrability. He was born at Lowestoft in 1906 and educated at St. Pauls. He entered the RAF joining 19 Squadron. In 1937 after service in India he returned to join 105 Squadron. He was awarded the DFC and went on to command the unit. At the outbreak of war he went to France as a staff officer at Advanced Air Strike Force HQ before returning to begin his career in photo reconnaissance. His record brought rapid promotion in Coastal Command in 1943 and commanding 328 Recon Wing in Algiers covering operations in N.W. Africa. By 1944 Tuttle was Senior Air Staff Officer at HQ Mediterranean Allied Coastal Air Force, im which post he was obliged, after an outbreak of lawlessness, to use the RAF against Greek nationals, something he described ?as the most hateful order I have had to give?. After the war Tuttle progressed to become Deputy Chief of Staff of the Air Staff, from which he retired in 1959. As vice-chairman of B.A.C. from 1966-1977, Tuttle helped introduce Concorde. During his long aviation career he flew 103 types of aircraft, from bi-planes to jets. He was thrice mentioned in despatches, appointed OBE in 1940, C.B. 1945 and KBE 1957.? C.B. L.G. 14/6/1945, K.B.E. L.G. 1/1/1957; D.F.C. L.G. 10/12/1937 ?For gallant and distinguished service in Waziristan, during the period 25th. November, 1936, to 16th January, 1937; Phoenix Grand Oficer L.G. 15/3/1946; Patriotic War L.G. 11/4/1944 (approx 20 1st class awards and 20 2nd class only to British recipients). With full research and photograph of the recipient in full dress uniform wearing all medals (R2669) N.E.F.

Price: ? 8,950.00

Lastly, pictured is his badge to the OBE.

Is it just me, or does it appear in the photos that his CBE has the hanging loop twisted so the hole runs parallel to the arms of the cross, instead of perpendicular as it is in the one that you have? My eyes are just going buggy from trying to figure out how he connected it to his uniform in the first photo, that's all.

Dave

Apparently the OGPW2 was to a KIA, burned alive in a tank - sounds like a sad tale behind that one. Once I get the research I will be sure to share here.

Ooooh!!!! My checkbook is out and open.........

Dave

Wow! Thanks!!!

I wonder if one of those guys was our dear Comrade.... Wow again!

Dave

Dave you mad, mad fool!!!!! How COULD you have flogged THAT on???? Why, the very NOTION!!!!

Rick -

It was one of those groups that was simply just TOO large to keep.....

Dave

Here's a closeup of the stamp and signer...

Here's one, formerly of my collection...

Guys - I didn't see this thread last night, otherwise I would have checked the AC (since I still haven't gotten an envelope for them yet to send it all to Rick) I remember looking at the citation last night though, as the s/n is close to Agiton, and the action is close to another one of the groups I used to own (Kvasha) both were for fighting in the Crimea. I was rather surprised to see that his s/n was only a few numbers off, even though it was (as far as I can read) awarded for actions completely different than those for the other two guys. I'll make scans of what I have when I get back home this afternoon.

Dave

Just out of curiosity, anyone have a clue what an LOM certificate and citation to a Soviet NCO might be worth? Still negotiating on the one I was offered, but I haven't a CLUE what these are worth!

Thanks!

Dave

One thing to add about wearing the awards though during the Cold War was not so much because of reprocussions, but those who did not wear the ribbon didn't wear it simply because the actual ribbon length was unobtainable! (Also, it was a bit of hassle wearing the smaller sized ribbon as well.) The same reason goes for wearing the actual medal during ceremonies... Most didn't wear them because of the hassle (and in the case of screwback awards, the permanent damage) of wearing them on their uniforms.

Dave

I can't imagine ANY U.S. officer wearing Soviet ribbons in the 1950s or 1960s!!!

Of course, that's covered in my article, as that's a question I asked during my intereviews. Responses ranged from "Yes, of course I wore it because I earned it" to "I just stuck it in a box and mailed it back to those Commie bastards" (or something to that effect.) For most people, they didn't really care about any sort of "consequences" for wearing it and not a single one (both Navy and Army) recalled any sort of reprocussions for wearing or having an award from the USSR.

Dave

The Soviets also presented quite a number of awards to British officers. Interestingly, I have researched an Order of Lenin with a 1942 Ukaz date, which is quite out of the ordinary for foreign awardings.

Dave

Also, please note that my numbers are not exactly concrete. I have listings of probably about 70% of Army officers who were awarded Soviet decorations during the War (thanks General Cullum!) as most were USMA graduates (being that they were senior officers at the time.) I have only begun to scratch the surface with regard to non USMA officers and enlisted personnel, and I doubt there will ever be enough information to compile a concise list of Army recipients. I would estimate that, particularly with regard to the lower-end awards, Army award numbers equalled (if not surpassed) the Navy award numbers.

The Navy recipients are as complete as I can get them, as they were listed in several sources, notably the bi-monthly All Hands magazines and for the latter awarding, the Soviet Embassy sent a copy of the Ukaz - with names - in English to the recipients of the awards.

This is one of those research projects that will probably never end. I've been researching these for quite a few years now, but in some areas have only started to uncover significant information.

Dave

Was there not a large group of American Veterans who are entitled to a special version of the 40th Anniversary of Victory Jubilee medal(1985)?

Yes, there was, as well as on the 50th Anniversary, and this past year on the 60th Anniversary. However, since those were not technically "decorations" but rather jubilee medals, I did not include them in my research.

Dave

And here's a photo from the 2nd Armored Division of their award ceremony with the Soviets. Thus far, I've been too busy to make to the National Archives to scan more... I'll have to do that this next week!

Since we have a thread on American Awards to Soviets in WW2, I thought I might start a thread about the reverse. I can't go into too much detail here (it's already a 9 page article -without photos- for the JOMSA) but I thought that at least I could give some numbers and a little bit of data.

There were three distinct periods of awarding Soviet awards to Americans. First, there were mid-war awards. The majority of these awards were awarded under a February 1944 Ukaz, but the actual awardings took place from April through October of 1944. The awardees in this group included officers that had been KIA with valor (such as COL William Darby of Rangers fame) and senior officers who had been involved with the fighting in the ETO up to that point, to include Eisenhower, Bradley, VADM Hewitt, amongst others.

The second period of awarding was immediately following VE Day. These awardings took place on a unit-to-unit basis (for the most part) and were awarded "in the field" (even Ike's Victory was awarded not in a political capital, but in the HQ in Frankfurth-on-Main) Nearly all of these awards went to US Army personnel, and the majority were either undocumented or had only temporary citations.

The third (and final) period of awarding was by an August 1945 Ukaz, which bestowed awards on US Navy personnel "for keeping open the sea lanes" in the Atlantic. Recipients had nearly all been awarded US Navy decorations for valorous acts while serving in the Atlantic, though only about half of the recipients actually were involved with convoys to the USSR and the like. Some never even saw a Soviet, or even a Soviet ship the entire War - but were still awarded a Soviet decoration.

A rough numerical breakdown is as follows:

Award Name - Army - Navy

Order of Victory 1 - 0

Order of Suvorov 1st Class 3 - 0

Order of Suvorov 2nd Class 11 - 2

Order of Suvorov 3rd Class 1 - 1

Order of Kutuzov 1st Class 2 - 1

Order of Kutuzov 2nd Class 7 - 1

Order of Kutuzov 3rd Class 2 - 1

Order of Bogdan Khmelnitsky 2nd Class 1 - 0

Order of Nevsky 10 - 1

Order of the Red Banner 5 - 0

Order of the Patriotic War 1st Class 38 - 28

Order of the Patriotic War 2nd Class 24 - 27

Order of the Red Star 10 - 28

Order of Glory 3rd Class 1 - 45

Medal For Valor 2 - 25

Medal For Military Merit 5 - 25

Ushakov Medal 0 - 5

Nakhimov Medal 0 - 15

I think Dave has a good point... It may well have been left up to the Soviets to determine who received the awards. Giving out high awards to enlisted personnel was a very "communist" anti-rank thought (like they actually followed it, but politically it sounded good!) I know that for numerous foreign awards to Americans, the nation giving the award offered the specific award to a certain unit, and the unit was then allowed to determine who the award went to. Thus, you had situations like that which involved a good friend of mine, who had been recommended for a Medal of Honor, but was downgraded to the DSC. Because of this, his unit put him in for a foreign award from every nation that offered it to the Division, and thus he ended up with the British DSO, Soviet Nevsky, among others.

Just a thought!

Dave

I have the research in my hot little hand.

He was also awarded:

Red Banner 81085 Ukaz date 16.10.42

Nevsky 23194 Prikaz 39th Army 17.2.45

Looks like it's a split group, Rick. You had better sell it to me NOW.

Dave

And here's a LOM awarded to an HSU. I've got his name, but I'm at work at the moment.

The interesting thing about this photo is that it was offered to me direct from the recipient's daughter together with his LOM in case of issue. At the time, the LOM was excessively expensive ($900) and I passed on it - but kept the scan of the photo. After putting the photo on my website, a friend of mine contacted me - he had the guy's entire group, just missing the LOM! I tried to get the medal, but by that time it was unfortunately too late... Ouch!

Dave

Neat document! I don't think it has anything to do with the medal itself, but is more of a document that was made for the veterans working in the factory in 1975. I have seen a few items like this, but none exactly like this one, as they were all made up according to the specifications of the individual organization. One of my favorites was for a nuclear submarine construction facility which made a photoalbum for all of it's veteran employees with photos of each employee (together with their workgroup) that had served in the GPW. Fascinating!

Dave