NavyFCO

I would like to pose a question. What would be your reaction if you observed a green service tunic of a Marine Master Sergeant adorned with the following decorations: Air Medal with three stars, Marine Good Conduct medal with four stars, Army Good Conduct medal, ETO with one star, American Defense Medal, WWII Victory Medal, AAF Air Crew wings, Marine Air Crew wings? Would like very much to have your obser-vations. Regards, Jack

Jack-

In my opinion, this is either one of two things... Either it's been messed with, or it's being worn by someone who doesn't give a rip about regulations. It's not an impossible group, but certainly a very odd one that would have to be one of a kind if real. The only thing I can't quite figure out is the Air Medal with the stars, which leads me to think that he may have earned olc's as an Army aircrewman and then "converted" them to stars himself. I think having four Air Medals without combat in the Marine Corps is next to impossible. Also, where is his National Defense?

Just my two cents...

Dave

And a picture of the pretty little ship...

Here's a history of the Pioneer....

Rick-

If it's any consolation, I agree with you about it being an MMM...

Now, back to the topic...

Here's the history of the Petropavlovsk...

Ed-

Neat group!

There's not much to glean from his diving log, other than the fact that he dove quite a bit, and kept up with his diving qualifications!

Did the group come with the citation for the Ushakov?

Dave

Any idea when the picture of the Grandfather was taken? Also, can we get a closer look at the St. George? It looks like it's white enamelled, which of course a Cross of St. George 4th class (for enlisted men) would NOT be. Maybe he later received the Order of St. George as an officer?

Tim-

I think the group shots of the grandfather were taken in either mid-1919 through to early 1920. I think that the St George was probably metallic, but just caught the light and looks white in the photos. He was enlisted prior to getting a field commission, even though his father was an obviously very senior officer (and that photo is dated 1915 on the reverse)

Dave

Hello Dave I was not trying to make you sound like a story teller.

But on ebayer sellers are always coming up with some story that you can't prove is true.

I when I was told it was yours, I have no doubt it is true, too bad you have to remove the pin to try to have it researched. Probley more trouble than it is worth.

I wish I could... I'm very tempted to do it but common sense and money are two things pulling me away from that. If it doesn't sell, I might... just might... take the plunge... maybe... How cool would it be that it was actually awarded to a Romanian general?

I was just notified that I have several Ukazes coming in for awards to Americans and Brits, so they are possible to research!

Dave

But there is no way to prove what he was told, so it adds no value or history.

And yes it was done very professionally but why the heck did they do it right over the serial number, they could have done it on an angle and left the serial intact.

I purchased this from a Romanian medals dealer who happened to have this award. I originally bought it with the intention of removing the pin and getting the number off of it for research, but from the outcry on here against that and because of the fact that I... ahem... kind of spent our mortgage money for the month... buying out a Soviet uniform collection, I need to raise some cash pretty quick. Since this one isn't researchable as-is, it's being sold under my "last in, first out" theory - it's the latest award I got in, and thus the first to go before I can get attached to it.

As for the story of it being awarded to a Romanian general, I think I state in the auction that there's no way to prove that, but it's an interesting story nevertheless. From what I know:

-I bought it from a Romanian medals dealer

-Who bought it from "the family of the general"

-The general also had a Kutuzov 2nd likewise converted to pinback

-The conversion job is about a million times nicer than ANYTHING I've seen that was a "field conversion" or "convieience alteration" from screwback to pinback (and I've owned quite a few of those over the past 15 years I've been collecting Soviet awards)

-And only a non-Soviet would stick a pin catch right over the serial number... A Soviet would (should) have to prove that his awards were owned by him - and thus carry the order book, but a Romanian (or at least a non-Soviet) wouldn't need to.

So, all things considered, there's a great chance that it was awarded to who the guy said it was awarded to. It's purely up to the buyer if they want to believe it or not, and the award is priced significantly below that of a comparable one with the screwpost still attached.

Just my thoughts !

Dave

I just saw Red Banner "2" number 2 yesterday. The price that the dealer wanted for it was about 9 times more than a normal one, but I was actually extremely tempted to buy it... after all, when are you ever going to find another like that? Ever??? That's one of the times when rarity outweights any kind of reasonable value...

Dave

Personally I consider breaking up any group to be a capital offense, though as we proceed beyond the phaleristic core of medals and paperwork, the issue become increasingly unclear (at least to me): ribbon bars, uniform tunic, shoes, underwear, his daughter's underwear??

I have a group like that... I ended up getting everything from the guys medals to his papers to his shaving kit and wristwatch... you name it, basically anything that the family could find of his that wasn't thrown out immediately after he died. It's a neat group, but huge. My contact that was brining this stuff out thought I was crazy for wanting all this stuff! But here's my thought though, which is basically another question... If I sell the group without the guy's shaving kit and watch, have I split the group up? I don't plan on doing that, but at what point is the group considered "split"? I don't think there's a really good answer and it's one of those "what's the meaning of life?" debates that could have smart people discussing it forever and never reach a good answer...

Dave

The final photo. I assumed this one pre-dated the Civil War, but judging from the decorations, it's definately Civil War. Perhaps a photo taken in Turkey while awaiting transport to other countries?

The next field photo. The tall guy is supposedly Baron Wrangel?

Here's the first of two field photos with the grandfather...

Here's a scan of the great grandfather. I'm assuming he was a general with those shoulder boards? Oddly, I would have expected a royal cypher on them? Thoughts?

The inside of his order book. I wonder what the purists would say about the mis-stamp in the book? "Throw it out, the group is GARBAGE! It's not worth anything because SOMEONE messed it up!" Noooooo!!!

Here's the Third Class with the group... Too bad that some folks think that this would be detrimental to the value of the group...

And the reverse....

I found some nice shots of the other Glory 1st as well in my files. Enjoy!

The next page of the award book with the serial numbers...

Here's also the inside of the book... Rick, it's a 1976 date, so the Glories were worn down by then (given that the photo was taken at the same time the book was issued...)

Can I see a photo of the backs, what are the serial numbers?

Okay, by request........

I hope for the sake of your consignor you can get $2500-$3000. But as a long term-buyer of militaria, PMD approved or not, that's a lot of money for a really rough set.

I'll admit that it's a really rough set, though I think of it more as "well loved"... he polished the group every day until he died. I guess I could dig up his grave and slap his wrist for taking away the numismatic properties of the awards, but I think it's a moot point... they are what they are.

All that I'm saying is that I think you're inexperience is making a very unrealistic appraisal, based on seeing what, one real group offered for sale? Were I to see this group offered for sale at $1500, I would jump on it in a heartbeat, and I don't even collect these! When I bought this group from PMD originally in 2000, I was actually in competition with three other collectors for them at just under $3K... but I got them because I had bought the consecutively serial numbered group from him not a few weeks before that. And I later sold the two groups for what I had into them to another collector. I think it's only reasonable that, given the same condition they should go for about the same price that they sold for six years ago, even though for every other Soviet award, to make that statement would be absolute and pure insanity. YOU might not think they're worth that, but you're entitled to your own opinion. I personally think of the pair of these groups that the group with the "8 out of 10" graded Glory 1st is worth the majority of the money, with this set being neat to have with it as a consecutively numbered group to a famous Cavalier... not because of the numismatic value of the front of the medals.

This is the last time I'll post up anything like this. I do apologize to all for how this thread has turned out.

Dave

I find the set fascinating and makes me ask a great number of questions. Foremost, what the heck did he polish those with? Secondly, when was the orders booklet issued that it already had a photo of these 3 medals buffed out like this!? I think David, for a set in this condition, atrributable or not, you'll be hard pressed to get the value you're seeking. At the point where you're 40% in, to me anyway, you're better off saving that extra amount for one in vastly better condition.

Yes, they still have value, but the historical significance/value has superceded the value of the medals themselves. In the absence of the provenance, I don't think you'd be able to get anything for them. My best inexperienced guess hear is that if you can find someone willing to pay $1500 in that condition I'd take the money.

Rick:

I appreciate your opinion. However, your inexperience is shown by your statement that you don't even know where the photo came from. The cavaliers were issued special "cavalier" order books, and this is where the photo came from, and is completely correct for the order book.

I'm not sure what you consider an "absence of provenance"... These have PMD certificates, they have the original cavalier book, and they are completely readable on the reverse of the awards. Tell me this - what's more valuable? An attributed medal that has been worn on the front, or a medal that has had the serial number erased on the reverse? If it's the latter, it's simply a piece of metal and somewhat valuable numismatically, but of no historical value. At least these have historical value... but explain to me why I've seen Suvorov 3rds with numbers erased sell for over $3K?

I appreciate your opinion, but I think your a bit off in your valuation for what's here.

Dave

Now, here's a picture of the vet wearing this exact bar. Call me crazy, but I'd personally rather have a bit more wear than numismatically "acceptable" in order to know that these things were worn with a lot of love and care for many years. The original recipient was quite a famous character - one of the most famous Glory Cavaliers, and an icon where he lived. So, the history is a bit stronger with these than the overall condition of the set... the buyer for these will be someone (like me) that appreciates the history behind these more than the physical condition.

And slava1stclass, I'm not nearly as naive as you think... I think this group's worth perhaps 40% of what is currently being asked for the one legit group for sale right now (maybe around $2500-$3000 at best).

Just my two cents...

Dave

I couldn't agree more. The condition/degree of damage plays an important role in driving the price equation. Nicks, scratches and even the despised "gold check" gouges are one thing. Orders that have been virtually rubbed clean of any identifying features (other than the outline of the order itself), however, is quite another.

Since a good number of the people on this thread probably don't know what we're talking about, here's photos of the group in question. First, a photo of the front of the three Glories...