NavyFCO

Thats of course possible.

Dave, do you know, how long the awards were stored?

Gerd

If someone died, their awards were kept by the state indefinately. I heard rumor in the mid-90s that the state let a lot of awards go, but I've never seen anything that's documented to back that up. As far as I'm aware, there are still piles of awards sitting in a vault... somewhere...

Dave

Please keep us posted on that book. Sounds to me like an excellent source for the mass long service awards, but not going to help (?) with the 1 or 10 or whatever sort of indovoidual command bestowals.

Still, absolutely EVERYTHING helps!

It should help to an extent. Most of the units that we listed in the book were at the Front or Army level. Consider that each of these units received roughly 1000 (or more) consectutively serial numbered awards, you should be able to pinpoint a good percentage of awards to what Front/Army they were given to. Also, you should be able to determine the approximate month/year of issue the award for about 95% percent of awards. The great thing about this is that if, in the book you see a Red Banner that is say, 215,XXX, and you find another one that's a 215 or even 214 or 216, and that award was a 1st Belorussian Front Berlin Operation award, your chances are really good that it's another Berlin operation award rather than simply one that was issued "mid-1945".

Dave

I had always thought there was too much "looseness" in the wartime Soviet awards system to pin awards down this closely and pseudoscientifically.

I don't think you can ever precisely pin down things, but there are several thousand award listings in the book so it should be able to give you a good idea what was issued when for what.

There will always be holes though... For example, Rick's Red Banner was issued for .... (whoops! Almost told you!) but it falls within the serial number range for Revolution awards.

However, the book is a good try at trying to pin everything down, and it's very pro-research. The author included citations and stories about how people were awarded certain awards so it should be as good of a read as it is a valuable reference book.

Dave

Details, please, . . . ????

Shhhh.... it's a secret!

Just kidding... a new book is scheduled to come out this Spring that details Soviet military awards by serial number and Ukaz/Prikaz date. That way, you'll be able to see that Red Banner 2XX,XXX was awarded on 10 May 1945 by Prikaz number XX of the 1st Belorussian Front, etc. It will allow folks to pin down within a reasonable certainty what awards were issued for what operation.

Dave

Go with the Red Star... The Red Banner is almost 100% long service.

Of course, when the new book comes out, you'll be able to know for sure...

Dave

What had Lykov "done?" Probably nothing at all.

Or, maybe he was a bad person?

There are plenty of things that can get you arrested... larceny, money laundering, sexual assault, adultery, black marketeering... the list is endless. Although the Soviet veterans tend to be glorified a bit, there were a lot of them that were just downright sleezy (as with any country). He could well have been one of those.

When someone was convicted on a "treason" charge, or were executed, their awards were stripped from them and returned to the state. However, if they were later rehabilitiated, they received their awards back.

It might not be as spectacular, but I tend to think that he was more of the ordinary criminal sort who either did jail time and got his award back, or who was simply kicked out of the military and got to keep his awards.

Just my two cents.

Dave

Do you have Koldunov's double Gold Stars as well??

No, the only Soviet awards that I had from the Marshal was his Homeland 3rd, Lenin Prize, and the medals "Excellence in Guarding the Borders" and "International Military Cooperation" all with their documents. I did have most of his foreign awards and their documents though. I'm sure that Koldunov's Soviet medals were sold at some point, but I've never heard of them being owned by anyone in the West.

Dave

Based upon all of those award citation folders, Chief Marshal of Aviation Koldunov had a lot of stuff! What are some of the highlights in this man's career?

Starting his military career in 1941, he started combat flights in June 1943. From that time through the end of the War in 1945, he was credited with downing 46 enemy aircraft (including 3 US P-51's) during 358 combat sorties, making him the 8th highest scoring ace of the Allied forces!

In 1952, he graduated from the Air Force Academy, and in 1960, graduated from the General Staff Academy. During that same period, he was promoted to Major General, and in 1970-71 was promoted to Colonel General along with the assignment of Commander, Moscow Air Defense.

Between 1978 and 1987, he served as the Chief of Air Defense Forces for the USSR. During his tenure, he oversaw the downing of the Korean Airlines 747 over Sakahlin Island, and later, the landing of Mathias Rust and his Cessna-170 in the middle of Red Square on 28 May 1987.

Two days later, he resigned from his post, and retired from the Air Force, having held the highest rank attainable for an Air Force officer, and only one of seven to hold the title of 'Chief Marshal of Aviation'.

He died of cancer shortly after the fall of the USSR, in 1992.

You can see photos of what I had (well, most of it... it got REALLY old taking photos of the folders!!!) on my website: http://www.forvalor.com/s90.htm

Dave

What I found out later is that the NKVD guy's grandson was the seller of the group. Interestingly, his grandson can't be much older than I, or perhaps even still in his 20s... and this group was sold 10 years ago. Could you imagine a kid in his late teens selling all his grandfather's "stuff"???

The other thing interesting about the group is that the guy was a notable inventor. In fact, two of the documents are patents for his inventions. But, there's no RBL, Honor Order, not even a "For Valiant Labor" medal! Rather interesting what it took to get something...

Dave

Deja vu all over again?

He bemoans the fact that ca. 1994 you could get a Suvarov 2nd class for $1600, but that "now" (1997) it might cost $2500 or more. (I note one right now with a dealer in New Jersey for $14,800!) He predicts that prices will continue to climb.

Right . . .

Now, what was interesting was that two years later, the prices bottomed out... the 1999-2000 prices were the all-time low of Soviet collecting... and then they skyrocketed with a BANG. Sometimes I can't figure out how the whole pricing thing works!

Dave

Now for the biggest I ever owned... this is the group to Chief Marshal of Aviation Koldunov... this photo is ONLY the paperwork, not to include his awards or uniforms!

Now, if you like 'em big, here's my biggest HSU group. Not as big as the others, but still a very large group. This guy definately had the most Soviet medals of any group I've ever owned.

To be fair to the group to the fellow I first posted about, here is his group on the same table as the other big one that I had. These photos were taken back in late 2001.

What's interesting is that I found that I never had his award citations translated. This group came with the "excerpt" citations that were the norm for research back in the mid-90s, and then I later re-researched the group and got his actual citations... but never bothered translating them. Re-reading them this morning, there's a ton more information in them than I had previously thought! For example, the excerpt citation for his Red Star talked about him building 800 gas masks. Interesting, but not really notable to most collectors. However, when you consider that he built them while almost entirely without supply while stuck on a beachhead, surrounded by heavy German units, it's quite a bit more spectacular!

I will post this group up in the "researched groups" forum when the translations are complete.

Dave

I was cleaning my display cases this morning and took out this one to scan. It's a real beaut and one of my favorites!

Pretty spectacular David. I don't think I've seen one even close to this for scope & depth.

Yeah, it's almost a cradle-to-grave one though I don't have anything prior to his military service... but I do have his 1993 death certificate!

Here's the only one that I had that rivalled this one, but I think there were only about 150 documents in this group....

Here's the inside of his order book. His Red Star dates 27 June 1943, and his Red Banner is 22 October 1943.

Dave

Dave,

Please post the other stuff as well! What is the date on his Order of the Red Banner? It would be awesome if you had his original medal citation somewhere in there?!

Here's his "revised" group to include his map case, flashlight, shaving kit, watch, two wallets and more! I tried to get the ugly tie he wore in a lot of photos, but never got it.

His original citations weren't in the lot, but there was a nice eyewitness statement that talks about how he was nominated for an Order of Lenin for the actions where he received his Red Banner!

Dave

Now that is a lot of stuff!! Have you gone through it all yet?

Interestingly, I have owned this group since 2001 (I think I paid a whopping $350 for it back then!) but hadn't really thoroughly looked at it until just last night. I found that it has a 12-page handwritten wartime autobiograhphy that details every action that this fellow took part in! He was part of the 165th Rifle Brigade that made the amphibious landing on Novorossisk on 6 February 1943. For the next 225 days, they were stuck on the beachhead in an operation that would become known as the "Little Land" (Maly Zemlya) operation. He eventually was wounded six times in a 72 hour period of combat crossing the Dnepr, was hospitalized for nearly a year and then, because of his invalid status, served as an NKVD officer in Samarkand.

In addition to what's in this photo, I have another bag of goodies that I forgot about until this morning including his map case, gold watch, shaving kit, veteran's buttons and more!

Dave

Tired of those "little" groups with just the decorations and the order book???

After 3.5 hours of scanning and 151 scans later, here is one of my largest groups of approximately 320 documents and photos to a former NKVD Captain. True, the medals aren't that impressive, but what's amazing is all the documentation!

What's sobering is to think that EVERY group has the potential to be like this one. Most of the veterans had lives after the War, and most were active with their veteran associations. But, all too often the "pickers" go in and just buy the awards and sadly leave the rest...

Ahhh... what the world could be like!

Dave

Thanks a lot! So he really witnessed Pearl Harbor.

What does it mean that he reverted to Colonel? Rick, you know what I mean, was his Brig.Gen. something like the German "Charakter als" rank?

During WW2, quite a number of senior officers were temporarily promoted to a more senior grade in order to fill a position or responsibility. Most of these officers kept the temporary rank after the War, particularly if they were in the more junior ranks; quite a few Lt Colonels (and even Colonels) were permanent Captains, but were paid for and wore the more senior grade. I once asked an officer who was a permanent 1st LT and temporary LT Colonel if he reverted back after the War, and he looked at me as if I was crazy! He honestly didn't know that he was still a permanent 1st LT at the time and he continued to wear (and get paid for) service as a LT Colonel until promoting to Colonel years later.

However, the number of general officers is a bit different and is determined by Congress. As a result, we couldn't maintain as many general officers as the War had required on active duty in the immediate post-war years. Thus, a significant number of one and two star generals were demoted to Colonel at the conclusion of the War. Some of those officers eventually were promoted to general officer grades on their own merit later (figure they were good enough to do it the first time, so their chances were pretty good at being promoted) but often many were like General Whisner, who had already served for 30 years and was probably on his "way to pasture" anyway so they just retired at their senior permanent grade.

Hope that makes sense!

Dave

Some fair points. What's your take though on the number of Chinese / Russians purchasing (whether for trade or collecting) Mongolian items.

My opinions are based on my observations over the past couple of years... It seems that when Soviet awards were inexpensive enough, there was a tiny group of collectors that collected Mongolian awards. All of a sudden, prices on Soviet awards went through the roof and the following in the Mongolian (and Eastern European/Warsaw Pact awards in general) awards world skyrocketed accordingly. Many "new" collectors of Soviet awards that were just getting in as prices were going up simply transitioned over to Mongolian awards as it was something interesting and affordable - some of these people have become the "mainstays" of the Mongolian award collecting world. One thing to ponder though would be the status of Mongolian award collecting had Soviet award prices maintained what they were, two or three years ago? Would it have stayed the small collecting community that it had traditionally been? My guess is that it would have.

Please don't think for a minute that I'm in anyway bad mouthing the Mongolian award collecting community. I'm just stating my opinions as I see it. I think that there are very definitely quite a few interesting Mongolian awards, but they don't really appeal to me personally as they aren't researchable and rare is the "group" that comes out of Mongolia.

As far as the Russians that are beginning to collect Mongolian awards... I think the same phenomenon is happening over there. Although a tiny percentage of Russians have gotten very wealthy and can afford the $14,000 USD to buy a Suvorov 2nd, most "average" Russians and Ukrainians are worse off than their western counterparts bringing in $10,700 and $6800 per capita respectively in annual wages (source: CIA Factbook). Thus, for them collecting Mongolian awards is also a matter of financial consideration... it's possible to assemble a nice Mongolian award collection (most of the awards having been made in the USSR anyway) for a fraction of the cost of Soviet decorations.

I still haven't figured out Chinese collectors yet, simply because I just don't know enough of them to make an educated opinion - though in my opinion many of them seem to follow whatever the popular collecting trend is at the time... and have the money to back up their interests wholly.

Do I think that the rise in Mongolian award prices is investment or interest driven? I think there's a bit of both. More people are interested in the awards, and thus the prices are going up... the law of supply and demand. At the same time, you have folks like GlennC who:

This is small part of my collection. I am buying as many as I can afford. Prices are going up and will continue to rise.

Which may not be a bad idea... had I done that back when I could buy Kutuzov 3rds for $700 a pop, I should have bought a couple dozen of them! Of course, that would have been buying for investment rather than interest as I personally think that the Kutuzov is a rather ugly award...

Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents in the thread. Enjoy!

Dave

Wearing my pessimist hat today, I think that the value of Mongolian awards will only increase until they are out of reach of the main body of their following... those who are collecting Mongolian awards because Soviet awards are now out of their range of affordability. Compared to Soviet award collectors (which is a relatively small group in relation to US/TR/Brit/etc.) I think Mongolian award collectors will continue to only constitute a very small fraction - driving up prices based on supply and demand amongst the small community. Thus, the prices will only go up as far as this small group will be willing to pay. Unlike Russia, there aren't that many "deep pocket" collectors in Mongolia that are willing to shell out big money for their awards driving up prices like they have on Soviet ones.

Just my opinion.....

Dave

It's a naval officer's sword belt buckle. I normally see them as two-piece ones though, this is the first single piece one that I've ever seen. The right facing eagle would indicate pre-May 1941 wear, but I can't pin it down farther.

Dave

A 100% possible group... my step-grandfather's was nearly identical. I wonder if this sailor was a USS WASP crewmember... They ferried RAF aircraft in the Med before going to the Pacific and being sunk in 1942.

Dave

The single star on the PTO ribbon and the star on the Am Def make me think he was at Pearl Harbor.... So, I looked up his bio and what do you know? He was in Hawaii at the time!

Here's his bio:

Whisner, Emons Bertram (1895-1984)

Born Kansas City, KS 24 AUG 1895

Graduate U of MO 1917

Commissioned 2nd LT Inf, 1917

Occupation duty in France & Germany, 1919-1924

Instructor, Infantry School, 1927-28

Aide to Governor General of Philippine Islands 1929-1932

ROTC Instructor Montana State U, U of Iowa and Punahou Academy, Hawaii 1936-42

Secretary to the General Staff at Fort Shafter 1942-44

Commander, Replacement Depot, Pacific Ocean Area and then 23rd Replacement Depot, Hawaii 1944-46 (sounds boring, but HUGE responsibility)

Brig. Gen January 1945

Reverted to Colonel March 1946

Retired as Colonel July 1953.

Decorations included 2x LOM and BSM.

Died 27 September 1984

Source: The Biographical Dictionary of World War II Generals and Flag Officers