NavyFCO

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I was actually asked about this on 19 January 2007. Looking back through my old e-mail, the uniform has the following awards:

> On the medal bar; Battle merit #1239942

>

> Soviet Order of the Red star- 117672

>

> Order of the Patriotic War, 2nd Class- 319710

>

> Order of the Patriotic War, 1st Class- 78182

>

> WW2 Guards badge

>

> Mongolian Order of the Polar Star- 407

>

> Mongolian Order of Combat- 2059

>

> Mongolian Order of Military Merit- 4489

Dave

Yes, I simply want the Mongolian belt and buckle and nothing else. Copy?

Vince

Hi Vince:

This is the problem posting up something like this in a discussion forum... Be prepared to get comments/discussion on it, and sometimes differing opinions.

As for me, I've had several people e-mail me about this uniform asking my opinions on it - seems like perhaps a year or so ago. I told at least one of them exactly what I posted in my previous post about the fact that while there's a SMALL chance it could be real, it would have to be researched to be completely verified by research to conclusively state that it was real. Since you've owned it since bringing it from Russia, I assume that they did not buy it from you - I do not know if I'm responsible for that or not.

Anyway, I think it's a uniform worth discussing, and even moreso, I think it's a uniform that really is worth researching to prove that it's real - IF it is real. If it is, this is one hell of a gold mine of awards - both money wise but more importantly, the historical importance of this uniform.

Dave

-- This is NOT -- as I am told -- a Soviet uniform, it is said to be a Mongolian uniform, and should not have all these foreign Soviet awards, mounted Soviet style. It seems (from the description, catagory placement, and tiny-small off-forum virus-infested images) to be a Mongolian uniform.

I might be missing something myself... it looks to me to be a common Soviet rifles (pekhota) Major's parade uniform. It has the maroon piping for rifles, the hammer and sickle buttons, and expected wartime boards. How is it Mongolian? (I've only owned a few of these....)

Dave

I think that this uniform should most appropriately have the normal Soviet officer belt and buckle rather than the Mongolian one. Please correct me if there is documented regulation(s) otherwise.

With regard to the medals, the only way that we can know for certain that this uniform is right is if it gets researched. I have to disagree with the lack of "fantasy" uniforms during the early 90s in Russia, as that is when I lived there as well (1992-1996). Fantasy uniforms came from several sources: 1. modern ones were still being made, as well as being cleared out from former Soviet stores/depots. 2. Uniforms were coming out of museums that had been "decorated" for display (have photos of similar uniforms, somewhere in my office...) 3. Uniforms were coming out of theaters/movie studios en masse...certainly some of those probably had decorations on them from productions and 4. Dealers at the time were already peddling put together uniforms (as well as fake/remanufactured awards) cash is cash and whatever could make a profit...

Am I saying that this uniform fits all of these categories? No. Could it possibly have been one from a museum that went under? Quite certainly. Could the medals belonged to a single veteran, dating from his entire career, and randomly assembled on a single wartime uniform? Sure.

Lots of questions....not many answers.

I would say though that in all my time of hitting the flea markets in Moscow (and elsewhere), visiting families and looking at uniforms and awards they still owned, as well as dumpster diving (boy, did I get some odd looks from Russians - an American in the dumpster!!!) I never found a "from the family" uniform that still had the medals on it. It simply wasn't a practical way to store uniforms in the typically tiny Russian home (apartment).

Just my thoughts. Let's research it and see what comes. Maybe you really did get lucky and strike a gold mine - never know for certain without documented proof.

Dave

These days, that medal almost seems like a bargain with a number like that...

Here's his badge, 1927 Georgian GPU chess champion.

Okay, that's one of the coolest Soviet badges I've ever seen! Thanks for posting it!!!

Dave

I know Paul McDaniel had one with at least four, if not five, as I remeber. He had been a general's (marshal's?) driver...

Dave

Just to add onto the confusion for the Air Medals...even non-aircrew were entitled to them (as is briefly mentioned above). Thus, even your "ground pounder" could receive multiple Air Medals. I have the group of a (non-aircrew or pilot) Navy officer (commander of TF116) who has his Air Medal with "13"... not bad for a surface navy officer!

He also received a Purple Heart due to a crushed vertebre during a helo crash (just to tie it back into the thread!)

Dave

I'll be darned... just looking at my unresearched Red Stars and I found one...1780032! I bet it was awarded to a Mongolian as well!

Dave

Ed-

Fascinating! These are the second (and third) documented Red Stars that I've seen to a Mongolian. The other documented one was given the same day and is award number 3700404 and the other that I got from a Mongolian dealer (sans document) was 3700416. Obviously, we can now say that the range for Red Stars to Mongolians runs from 3700041 to 3700416. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that there were probably 500 awarded, probably running from 3700000 to 3700500. That seemed to be a rough "lot" number from previous research.

As far as researching one of these, I haven't seen any research come back for a Red Star to a Mongolian yet, even though I've attempted to research the others that I've had. If you can get anything back, it will be a first, but I hope you can!

Good find!

Dave

WOW!

Thanks for sharing!

Can you take a picture of the reverse?

Dave

Fascinating! Thanks Chuck!

Thanks to the film studios (primarily MOSFILM and LENFILM) and theaters in the USSR, many fantastic uniforms survived, including some one of a kind pieces that were otherwise destroyed/descarded but were kept by the studios. (And TONS of nice German stuff also!)

I visited a fellow collector in Moscow once who had bought cases of military hats from MOSFILM when they sold out their stocks in the early 90s. His hobby was restoring them. In these cases were shoved literally dozens of hats and helmets, stretching all the way back to the brass-faced grenadier helmets from the first half of the 19th century! Why the film studio had originals of these hats, we'll never know, but they've been preserved now...

Dave

Ed,

His son is Nikolai Ivanovich. The award card for the For Valor medal states that this medal was given to Nikolai Ivanovich as his father was KIA and did not receive his award.

Dave

Doh!

But the (F) book!

Also just e-mailed it to you so you can post it up here. Yes, as you know, I'm notoriously bad about remembering to include the darned translations...

Untranslated.

The translation is on page 258 of my book.

Just out of inerest lets say a guy was wounded three times, would he have three purple hearts or a clasp or something? Now re the naming, the throw a spanner in the works. Lets say he was wounded three times, got his PH, and clasp or whatever, but then for this fourth PH he gets killed, would he then be issued with a offically named one, or would he just get a clasp or whaterver for the unamed one he already had?

Yes, if the person was wounded three times, they would be entitled to three Purple Hearts. Of course, on the uniform only one would be worn with two oak leaf clusters (or gold stars) signifying the other two awards.

If the person was later KIA, they would be entitled to another oak leaf cluster or gold star for their next subsequent award. However, the NOK would get a separate Purple Heart with the person's name engraved on it at that point.

There's very little "science" to the awarding of our medals... A person could end up with four Purple Hearts in their possession for being wounded four times or they could end up with none, as today we typically have our "awarded" medals which are then turned back in after the award ceremony. Only if he was KIA would one be certain of actually having a physical medal awarded to the person.

Dave

Ed-

What's wrong with the stamps? I'm guessing that these are from uniforms out of my collection that were my last "keeper" RCW uniforms. Some super nice, 100% original stuff that I had owned for ages.

Dave

A quest for further research results (via Alexei) have come up empty. Alexei feels the photo, stamp, and signature are not good.

And I still think they are good....for what that's worth...

Dave

Thanks guys!

Just got back tonight from my travels around the UK (mostly north of Scotland...) and saw the article. I think they did it justice at first glance!

Thanks again!

Dave

Rick:

Here are the ones I'm still waiting on, with the dates of request..... (all Red Stars)

3593277 10/6/2006

3603181 11/20/2006

3621944 3/12/2006

3647816 3/12/2006

3650706 10/6/2006

3652758 3/12/2006

3659095 8/19/2006

3659474 3/12/2006

3660159 4/3/2006

3673946 7/7/2006

3676075 3/12/2006

3676410 7/29/2006

3682354 9/16/2006

3687795 7/29/2006

3691950 5/15/2006

3693276 9/16/2006

3694386 2/21/2006

3700416 10/6/2006

3746253 9/16/2006

3796664 9/3/2006

3813676 5/15/2006

3675528 11/20/2006

1780032 26-May-07

Dave

Last chance before the research (and my $55) heads to the trash...... anyone out there own this group?????

Yes, word has he has some nice ones . . . maybe one less now . . . .

His website was finally updated. I don't think I've seen as many RCW buds assembled in one place - even having been to most of the big Russian military museums!!! Totally jaw-dropping stuff. If you're interested, check out: www.sovietgenerals.com

Dave

If you have a reference to the WWI Occupation being given for WWII Occupation service, can you send me the source. I'd love to document that.

I don't know of a reference that says "Award the WW1 Occupation Ribbon for WW2 Occupation duty", but what I can tell you is that the ribbon was originally the "Occupation" ribbon (why call it "WW1" in 1919 when there had only been one world war???) Thus, when the first awards of the Occupation ribbon(medal) were awarded post-WW2, this was what was received, as it was listed in the stock system as the only Occupation award available.

Dave