NavyFCO

Kutzukov 2

NOT FOUND

NB had (has) one for $8500.

Dave

did the Soviets use the abbreviations of the British Orders in their name ?

I would highly doubt it. I suspect that such a move would be quite against the preachings of communism! Having experience with US troops who were awarded British knighthoods, I only know of one that actually used it in conjunction with his name, and that was when his kids wrote up the thank-you notes given to the people who came to the veteran's funeral (which I received). That's the only time I've seen it in use over here.

Dave

Ed-

Good catch! Figure 2 was not supposed to be referenced in the text - I don't know how it made it in there to begin with! Oy! Ah well... I think folks can figure it out. Still a pretty good article in "original" territory if I might say so.....

Dave

Thanks Ed! Hopefully this article will be of use to other collectors, in both increasing the interest in research as well as dispelling certain myths that exist about this award.

Dave

P.S. Have you been getting my PMs? I wonder if the PM system is down again?

Dave GREAT article on the Motherland 3rd class

Thanks Doc! Hope some folks can use the info in the article!

Now if they'll ever publish my MIA article on Soviet awards to Americans.......

Dave

Ed-

The thread is still there (no reason to delete it) The link to it is: http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-...t-cav-army.html (hope no one minds the link!)

Dave

Seb: Like mine?

I tried to find the thread on That Other Forum (where I rarely go), and it seems not to be there. Managament censorship?

No censorship that I'm aware of.

-the Management from the other forum

I disagree that I got a direct verdict on ?the other forum?. It was more like a nice way to say ?fake until proven real?. And it?s just an opinion.

Actually, I think he was just trying to be informative with his comment of: "These ARE faked (what isn't these days?)..." I don't think he was saying that this one is a fake.

Back on the topic of this badge, I started thinking that they might have made the numbered badges for officers of the unit, and perhaps gave unnumbered ones to the rest of the veterans. Oddly, the numbered badge came from the estate of someone who WASN'T even in the unit (he was too young to have been in the Civil War) but was a general officer at the time. Rather odd, I think.

Dave

As I understood it (from what I was told when I first bought the one that is in Ed's thread from the "picker" who got it from the family) they should all be serial numbered. I don't know if they issued them without serial number, and I don't see a serial number on yours. Any other opinions are welcome!

Dave

I have one like this that was given out to a member of the US 8th Air Force. Most of the ones coming from Soviet veterans were unwrapped and worn, but I think a lot of foreign recipients (or ones that never made it to their Soviet recipient, such as if the recipient had recently passed on) were never unwrapped.

Dave

How can you be sure - when sending in a mail bid of 2.000 euro - that you will get the lowest winning amount as opposed to having the auction house just slapping 2.000 winning bid on it despite potentially 1.300 being good enough?

That depends on the policies of the particular auction house. I know of one major militaria auction house here in the US that switched from bidding in increments (or whatever it's called - where if one person bids $1000, the next person bids $2000, the higher is the winner and pays $1001 for the item) to bidding as actual bids. So, if you bid $2000 on an item, and the other bid was only $100, you would still be paying $2000 for the item. Luckily, for this change they made it widely known, however people who had originall bid on their auction, left the auction for a time, and came back to bid later were often surprised that their actual bid was the one that they paid!

So really, an auction house should have their bidding policies in print, so that way there is no confusion about what policy they adhere to.

Dave

I'm pretty sure I had made a bid on a certain item and thought I had read that the price ranges given were not minimum prices but estimates... yet I see the item I bid on as "unsold" based on the "prices realized" list. Did I miss something in the fine print?

The awards also had a reserve, so if your bid was below the award's reserve, the award went "unsold"

Dave

He uses a highly interesting device - a second sheet of cloth - for wearing his screwbacks. So he avoides the holes in his uniform - clever guy .

He used so much cloth though for around his awards where I personally think it looks silly! He'd have been better off with simply making the holes for his awards (in my opinion).

His awards look like someone jacked him up though... His two RBs are out of order, and more interestingly, given that his second row is out of order, he swapped his Victory over Germany with his Warsaw medal! Oy!

Dave

Here's one that fits into the "unusual unit" category. While not "rare", I would definately classify this one as valuable. It came with many other documents, medals, etc. from the same man.

Dave

Here's one of the same style to a General Major of Artillery...

Forgive my ignorance - but by everyones comments so far - these are rare?

No, these are fairly common depending where you look. The rarity comes in when the items are named to someone that's a senior officer, or is from an unusual unit. I don't collect paper, but I've had at least a half dozen of them with medal groups.

Dave

And I know that a "not found" result is likely if it is kosher; in this odd case, finding research would be a bad sign.

Actually, I meant more that if he was an enlisted person, his Valor citation may well be included in one of the "group" citations, which often will not include their other awards or wartime activities. Even in a regular award document, if he was awarded his Partisan medal later than the Valor, or if the unit didn't document this award with his other previous awards, it wouldn't appear in record. Plenty of former partisans became regular army soldiers and were treated just like every other solider, even though they had been awarded one of the two Partisan medals.

The best case scenario would be that the guy was SmerSh, served as an "advisor" to a partisan unit, and then went all the way into Berlin as a junior SmerSh officer, thus allowing you to get his full citation, service history and perhaps even personnel file!

Dave

Why should someone doctor such a rare combination, why not a more common one?

In the mid '90s there was a dealer here in the US that used to cart around boxes of made up groups that were exceedingly random. He would charge "parts value" for them - basically whatever the medals each were worth. Where they came from or who made them I don't know.

I don't like the wear on the group, but I've seen all sorts of wild stuff with groups that came direct from families. The research will be the only way to tell, but in my cynical opinion, I would have passed on buying it unless the seller was charging only for the value of the medals alone, and not them as a group.

Also, remember that with just a Valor medal, you may or may not find out if he was ever a partisan.

Just my two cents.

Dave

i just won 11 items

Alex - are the results out? I'm curious as to what everything ended at! Thanks! Dave

and we should not forget, that the prices are in (expensive) EURO . So, we have to add another 30 % surplus to our calculations ...

Good point! I didn't even think about that... and I thought that the estimates were expensive - even in dollars! Oy!

Dave

Today's the big day for the auction!

I will be interested to see what the final prices on items are.

I for one will not be bidding. There are some items I like, but given the "estimates" plus 18% plus shipping and handling would be excessive and well beyond what I could personally afford. Ah well... maybe next time.

Dave

At Russian military forum where the seller has put this flag for 2000 US D there were many questions. Spoke that the banner is stolen from a museum. However the seller proved legality of the sale. My opinion that such sale and purchase is immoral. Certainly if this flag not a copy. It is very a pity but the world correct money

For $2000, that seems to be about the right price for the condition, though it would be tough to resell later.

For all those questioning the immorality of buying or selling a unit flag: What's the difference between buying and selling a flag and buying and selling a unit award or document? If the unit no longer exists, there is no owner for it, and despite everyone's thoughts of the historical value, many of these unit items were kept in museums in the area where the unit was formed, many of those being far from Russia/Ukraine and after the end of communism, the people in these republics were GLAD to get rid of these "old vestiges" of communism.

Although it would be nice for the Russian government to preserve everything historic, it's an impossibility for them to do so. I believe it is better for some of these flags and other unit items to end up in the collection of someone who appreciates them and their historic value than any other option out there.

Dave

Very cool! How do you know it's an American naval cutlass? Are there any marks or proofs on it, or is it a known pattern?

Thanks!

Dave

The 163rd flag is pretty impressive! It's interesting that it has been repaired. It appears to have been in the sunlight for many years which destroyed the silk of the flag. I've had a good number of these through my hands over the years. I could easily collect them, but unfortunately that's more of a "rich man's hobby" than even order and medal collecting!

Dave

Just my remarks to the topic "Cold War".

Thanks for your input.