NavyFCO

This group is fine (at least from the Soviet perspective). Several thousand of these medals were given out to surviving Allied (I know of British, French and US, at least) veterans in both 1985 and 1995 (and to a more limited number, 2005) to commemorate their contribution to victory during WW2. Interestingly, I have seen very few with their corresponding documents, and even more interestingly, I have seen several with blank documents that were issued with the medal itself. I know of veterans who received these for participating in the "Murmansk Run", Atlantic convoy duty, US Army Air Force units stationed in the USSR, lend-lease ferry duty, Arabian Gulf convoy duty, and for the Soviet-American lines meeting through Germany in April/May 1945.

Hope that helps.

Dave

(author of the article Soviet Awards to Americans in WW2)

Except that it isn't actually for the one I have. I accidentally gave the wrong number. My order is #109,558, not 109,668. I misread the number from the picture I had (since I didn't have the real thing with me when I sent the request) and only realized my mistake now.

I've done the same thing before, so don't feel too embarassed! Unfortunately I had to pay the $55 for the research anyway and just chock that one up to a learning experience. Ouch!

Dave

Well, you can thank me for saving the money on research...Here's a scan of the front page of the Ukaz for Revolution awards.

Dave

I don't know why it never dawned on me before, but I could have told you that this award was/is nearly unresearchable.

It was awarded to a "foreigner" for his participation in the Russian Civil War. 28 October 1967 was the date of the Ukaz by which thousands of awards, from Lenin on down, were awarded to participants of the RCW who were nominated by their local deputies.

I have only had luck with a few of these, and that was when I knew where the person was from. All of the sections for this Ukaz are listed by region, and then by award...so if you don't know what region the person was from, you then would have to look through hundreds of pages of the Ukaz to look in each region under the Red Star recipients for each and find his name.

That's why you probably won't get research back on it. It's a LOT of legwork.

And, I can tell you it was awarded to a RCW veteran. There is no specific citation for it, as they were nominated by name only.

Hope that helps!

Dave

Seeing the Borisov group made me almost choke on my gum... I had horrible visions of the Kutuzov 2nd group with three Red Banners AND all the other medals PLUS ID documents, photos, etc. to a WW2 general that I passed up in about 2002 for $1700...why did I pass it up? Oh, it was missing his Lenin. After all, WHY would someone want a broken group like that???

Dave

Thanks Dave. And one of my groups (if not both) were researched by you. I presume if citation was available you would have got it together with the rest, right?

I just thought the citation could provide new information about the recipient I didn't already have with actual papers.

Now, this brings another question, how could I get the photocopy of the specific Ukaz applying to these long service awards and showing the list of recipients including my officer? I remember having seen scans here which listed a bunch of awardees names for a Red Banner long service. I would be ready to pay to obtain the two documents pertaining to my awards.

Thanks!

Yes, if it was there, we would have gotten it.

You can try getting the other two citations, but take my word for it, they'll be rather dissapointing...not much there other than the cover sheet for the Ukaz (which will state something to the effect of "For long and irreproachable service, the following awards are bestowed...") and then another page with a line with your recipients name on it. At that point, you wouldn't have anything more than you already have for your group.

But if you really want them, you can always request them. Of course, since very few are getting research back these days, it might be a while (if ever) before you see them.

Dave

Hi Dave,

You write about research as if it is more than just a cruel fantasy? When I am "lucky" I get "no", most of the time there's no more than a prevailing deafening silence.

Sigh . . .

Ed

I'm thinking of writing an article for JOMSA about it...but then again, that might just be more cruel than helpful...

Dave

P.S. My next article will be on posthumous awards...still part way through that one...

Gentlemen,

I have two nice groups for which I have almost 100% full research (over pages each). However, they each miss research for one long service award, one from 1949 and the other from 1956. But since their service record show info past those dates, I would believe the citations for the awards should be in the archives.

Is is possible to have researcher to do a second research on a group without having to pay agin for award card and service record which I already have?

If you know someone who can do this, please email or PM me contact information.

Thanks in advance!

My guess is that your two awards were not awarded with citations. I am writing this with info off the top of my head rather than what I actually have in my "archives" as reference, but I can't recall seeing a long service citation any later than 1948, and even that is unusual. Before people show me all the examples of long service awards citations they have from the 1960s and 70s, let me phrase my statement in the light of the Military Merit Medal, Red Star, Red Banner and Lenin that were given out automatically for certain years of service. I have seen plenty of other Red Banner, Red Star and Lenin citations post-1956 for awards that were most obviously long service (e.g. at retirement).

The majority of long service awards from the time you are referencing were awarded with just the Ukaz as the awarding authority vice a citation. Remember that the citation was a _request_ for the decoration to be awarded, whereas the Ukaz was the directive giving the award.

Thus, unless the person needed justification for the awarding of their long service award, they were simply awarded automatically to the recipient via the Ukaz (though probably by some means of application, but we'll never know that.)

Make sense?

Dave

All:

It's back! Sorry for the vacation.

Now, of course, I can't guarantee that you'll get back things in a timely manner, but hey - it's still worth a shot! This was the fun of collecting Soviet awards for me for over a decade.

Dave

Hmmm...I've seen this award somewhere before. I can't place where though. Have you sent it out for authentication yet? I'm no expert on authenticity, but I'm not a fan of the red enamel (too dark and too rounded), the back of the star (appears to be a dark chemical patina?) and the screwnut plate on the back of the hanger, which appears newer than the rest of the award. Like I said, I'm no expert by any means, so if others are comfortable with it, I will be as well. Just thought I'd throw that out so our friend from Aussie-land doesn't lose on it.

Dave

Why does the ribbon on Moscow's HSU star look messed with?

That's more of a rhetorical question, as I'm sure none of us have the answer, but doesn't it seem odd that a city's Hero star would have been fingered so much? It doesn't have the normal signs of wear that one would expect, but a LOT of people have fingered it, the ribbon is nearly beat, and you can tell where the screw nut was removed and the ribbon re-sewn at one point.

Odd...Thanks for posting though!

Dave

Guys,

I would not necessarily be that negative. A couple of years ago, the State Archives were moved from its old place to a brand new, high-tech building in St Petersburg.

The Russian are very proud of and highly value their heritage, and especially so their military history. I'd wait to pass judgement until we effectively know the details of the plan at hand.

Marc

I agree with Marc on this one. Remember that the Archives are not there to research collector's awards (gasp, heresy!) but are there to support the veterans. Although we can get great things from the Archives, they have a bigger reason to exist and chances are that because of that reason, the Archives will be taken care of in a decent manner.

The smart people would be buying commercial property in Padolsk though... when I was there in 1996 it was a very small town and the Archives were quite large. If they are planning on turning them into housing, it will bring thousands of new residents to the city.

Dave

Quite a few former White officers and soldiers served in the FFL during the 1920s/30s and in WW2 in an effort to capitalise upon skills they already knew (e.g. soldiering) and in an effort to prevent deportation/assassination in the period immediately following the collapse of the Whites in the Civil War. This photo is quite fascinating in that regard - the first photo of a soldier that I've seen like this.

Dave

I have an opportunity to buy a Soviet naval flag that is said to be made of dog hair because wool would not stand up to salt water conditions. The flag is associated with the submarine service. I do not know the size or anything more about it at this time. He will send a photo when possible. Any comments about a "dog hair" flag??

Sorry for the late response, but I think they're pulling your leg.

I have owned numerous Soviet navy flags dating from the Russian Civil War (to include converted Tsarist flags) and nearly all of them are either made of wool or cotton. I have never seen a flag made out of dog hair.

Hope that helps.

Dave

Doc-

I actually wrote an article about researching the Homeland 3rd in the JOMSA about a year ago. I'm sure you've got a copy of it. Yes, they are researchable, but there are some gaps and nowadays...who knows if research will come back.

Good luck!

Dave

You should try Nota Bene with this request - he's pretty good with the info so long as the name is involved. As far as my other requests, I still have at least 30 pending dating as far back as 2006....I either got a huge run of "dead end" awards (which I doubt) or.....

Dave

(greetings from somplace very, very warm and sandy...)

Silly Dave actually passed on this group as "too much" when it was offered to me in January 2001. Times have CHANGED.

I'm still at sea, but had to reply (takes over 10 minutes to bring up this window!)

Yes, I will admit that I passed on this group back in 2001 because at the time, $750 (what Igor was charging for it) WAS too darn much. I was buying groups similar (documented Homeland 3rds plus Red Stars) in the $150-$250 range (no kidding). In 2003 I sold several Homeland 3/Red Star groups with serial numbers that we know now to be Afghanistan-issue time frame for $300-$400 a pop...and I thought I was making a significant profit on them!

My have times changed!!!

Dave

You know, it's people like you Andrew who can't resist name calling and threats. Very sad.

I'm sorry this is the new "accepted" direction of Soviet award collecting.

For the entire board: Enjoy Soviet collecting without me.

Merry Christmas.

Dave

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