Schwyz

Rohleder,

I too like the Saxon style ribbon; they seem to be the hardest to find.

I especially like your mother's mini set … very envious.

Gar 

Hello Chris,

Thanks for posting this information.  The Ehrenkreuz has always fascinated me.

I have Ehrekreuz certificates for Toronto, Canada, New York City, USA and Madrid, Spain and I would sure like to add this one to my collection!  Hint, hint!

Others are known for England, Norway, Sweden, Bern, Switzerland and Columbia, South America and I'm sure there must be other locations as well.

Cheers, Gary

'SAXCOB' und 'IRISH GUNNER'  

Vielen Dank für Ihre schnelle Antwort und sehr hilfsbereit zur Verfigung.

Sehr zu schätzen.

MfG, Gar 

Hallo,

Habe gerade erwirbt den ersten Krieg Artefact, auf dem angegben ist,

"K.u.K. Inf.Regt. Nr. 98"

Was bedeutet der Begriff "K.u.K." das?

Danke 

How nice to see an old friend – and still with the original ribbons!

I once owned the Carl Dieck group, 25+ years ago. The disposal of my KGL collection at auction (Christie's) was, at the time the most sensible thing to do (so I thought) and I did VERY well. I had come to the conclusion at that time, with the increasing prices for KGL material, that I would no longer be able to afford further purchases. To this day I look back on my decision with regret – I wish I had just put the entire collection in my SDB and left it there. Chances are that I would have still continued to add to a collection that is fondly remembered above all others.

This group alone made £3740. and I shudder to think of what it would fetch today – as a retiree I definitely wouldn't be able to justify the expense now!

A couple of comments –

— the Hannoverian (KGL) Medal originally came to me (and left) with the ribbon the correct way – it has been changed around perhaps by someone who prefers it this way, perhaps because of the specific KGL inscription on the reverse, or by someone who does not realize the correct method of wear – happily, the ribbon can easily be re-positioned.

— the Guelphic Medal named to Dieck was presented to him while he was in the Jaeger Garde battalion. After Napoleon's first defeat in 1814, many Senior NCOs were sent back to Hannover to help train the re-constituted Hannoverian army – these NCO's remained in Hannoverian service and did not return to the KGL for the final campaign when Napoleon escaped – Dieck could have been one of these men.

If not, then after Napoleon's final defeat at Waterloo, the KGL were Stuck off Strength (SOS) of the British Army and the battalions returned to Hannover, many men enlisting in Hannoverian service.

Given that his award was presented in 1818, this explains the naming on this medal.

Unfortunately, the Citation for Dieck's award which would have specifically mentioned his deed(s) has not survived – very few have. If memory serves, the only Citations to have survived are the 83 mentioned in Beamish's two volume 1832-37 (?) history of the KGL, probably the rarest Napoleonic British regimental history – now happily reprinted and available.

Further information may be available from The Guelphic Archives in Hannover, but access to the Archives was tightly controlled (1980s) and might still be only available to scholarly researchers (i.e. not collectors).

Don't quote me on this because it has been too many years since I have been in Hannover.

Another interesting museum well worth a visit is The Bomann Museum in Celle, a few km north of Hannover. The museum has many KGL items, but the main displays are MANY original uniforms of the different battalions which were preserved by Dr. Bomann back in the 1840s and 50s (if memory serves, again). When I visited back in the late 1980s it was very overwhelming.

Cheers,

Gar

Asking a question about German language Medal Magazines —

"ORDEN, MILITARIA, MAGAZIN" or "ORDEN UND EHREN ZEICHEN",

I am interested to learn if any articles have ever appeared in these magazines which

detail specific information about the Ehrenkreuz (the common Honour Cross or Hindenburg Cross).

in any specific issue ?

If anyone knows of a specific issue containing such an article in these, or any other magazine, German

or otherwise, I would be grateful if you would pass the issue Number on to me so that I could attempt to purchase a copy(s).

Cheers,

Gary

Have seen the English version listed on eBay for 149,90 Euro + shipping of course, but have not ordered my copy yet.

I couldn't agree more with Chris's point of view. I believe if you are truly interested in and committed to research, each new effort advances the knowledge base just a little further and therefore this new work will in all probability be 'required' reading.

Gary

I think the 'base metal' theory is probable in my case, because some of the overcoating seems to be applied too thinly.

The integral ring is also base metal, while the ribbon ring is a regular type and colour.

What about the thickness of this Cross compared with the normal issued ones (1.4mm vs. 2.17mm) — it is not as well made either, which might be explained by post 1942 manufacturing priorities — anyone with comments?

Gar

Hallo Sergio,

I too have one of these Crosses — mine is without swords. The finish looks just like yours, but is unmounted. It is non-magnetic of course, with no maker mark.

I really never knew what to think about it — genuine or fake? The arms of a normal Cross are about 1.4mm thick, while the arm of this zinc cross is 2.17mm thick.

MfG, Gar

Here are scans of front & back.

Chris,

The 9th CMR (from Lloydminster, Saskatchewan) was broken up (date unknown by me, but probably shortly after arrival in the UK) to provide reinforcements for the Canadian Corps in the field.

Perhaps many of those men found their way into the 19th Battalion (which was a Toronto Battalion).

Cheers,

Gary

Chris,

Those are truly beautiful documents that are certainly worth collecting. And you are correct — so many of the 'normal' EK documents are visually boring in comparison.

Gar

Chris …

Here is one of my little gems … issued in Montreal, Canada to a Veteran living in Toronto, Ontario.

Hallo Lambert,

Probst's Urkunde is a nice one, especially with a 1940 date. The latest date I have is 17 Jul 1940.

I have noticed that for many of 'your men' you have given a small biography or personal history. Have these certificates come to you with this information or have you researched each man? If so, how are you researching — Ancestry, or ?

Just curious because I would like to do this also. It always adds so much more to an object.

Cheers,

Gar

Here is a photo of my large Cross. About 197 mm x 197 mm (7 3/4" x 7 3/4") and 2 KG.

I have it framed to hang on the wall.

I believe these were used on large memorials to the war.

Gar

Hello all,

The 'Erinnerungslatt' private purchase certificates are double sided and normally one encounters the 'Frontkämpfer' side filled in with the veteran's name and details.

The reverse side is for those awarded a 'Kriegsteilnehmer' cross and show the cross without swords.

These certificates are rareIy encountered (I have had only two — now three, all with the Kriegsteilnehmer side filled in) and I have always believed that these were

the only two crosses represented — that is until today.

I have just received a certificate, with the usual Frontkämpfer side filled in, but was totally surprised and delighted to find the reverse to be for a 'Witwen' award. What a New Years present!

Now of course, I'm feeling that there must be a 'Eltern' variety as well — and the search is on!

And I would naturally like to find examples of all varieties (not just the Frontkämpfer variety) with details filled in.

It would also be nice to have one of these along with the official certificate to the same man.

Here are two scans of this certificate — it was too large to do the whole, so I am providing a smaller scan of the bottom portion.

The size of the certificate is 220 mm x 320mm, which I believe is the full (untrimmed) size.

The certificate is in exceptionally good, clean and untrimmed condition, although the reverse side is just a little faded and very lightly darkened due to the fact that it had been framed and exposed to light for all these years, but those factors are very slight and not at all visually objectionable.

Cheers and Happy New Year to all,

Gar

Here are a couple of presentation items —

The cover of the Presentation folder and the paper promotion sheet inside —

Here's how it looks in the Folder — before being replaced with an Urkunde —

And once replaced — with an actual Urkunde —

I'm not sure if these Folders were for a presentation or if this is how some veterans just kept their certificates.

There was a thin clear acetate sheet provided to cover the certificate and keep it from being soiled.

Cheers,

Gar

Thanks for the tip regarding the Long Service ribbon Lambert; if he served in China and was awarded the EK in WW1 he would have had the number of years in.

I am more than happy to include information for you regarding the two books —

Both books are essentially the same (inside).

'Das Buch' was published in 1935;

'Mein Buch' was published in 1937 and contains eight extra unnumbered pages, for a veteran to fill in with his war memories and photos.

Both books are hardcover and have 112 pages consisting of 32 pages of text and pages 33 to 112 with photos of general views during the war.

In addition to the personal pages in 'Mein Buch' I have also included the three pages of 'Forward' which are common to both books.

The physical size of both is 175mm x 245mm.

The Title page —

Beginning of the 8 special pages in "Mein Buch" version —

For the next two pages I have only scanned the first page of each— the second pages of each have no title at the top and is blank except for the decorative border surrounding the space.

There are three pages of the following — the last two are blank except for the decorative border.

Now the three pages of the Forward, which are common to both books.

My only regret is that the pages for the veteran were not filled in — I think it would have been much more interesting if they had been.

Both of these books were purchased in Germany — I did not get them here in Canada. Perhaps if you scour some second-hand bookshops, or ABE.de, one will turn up, although I really don't think they are common considering the destruction suffered during the Second World War and afterwards — keeping these sorts of items was not really a priority for most.

Cheers,

Gar

Here are a few more items of interest —

There are those pesky punch holes on the left — this is also missing one of the four ribbons added — anyone have a guest which one it might have been?

And the reverse side of the above — it would be nice to have one of these all filled out but I have never seen one —

A couple of books —

The Dust Cover of the above book — too bad there is a piece missing, but I believe the dust cover must be very scarce —

And finally, a small document —

Thats all for now. Actually I don't have many oher paper items.

Gar

Troy — speaking of jealousy — how about many of the items on that German site "weltkriegs-ehrenkreuz.de" — WOW !!!!!

Lambert — I am still liooking for an 'Antrag' document — among other items !

Troy — my envelope is a nice addition to be sure, but you probably have lots I would be jealous of!

Thanks Troy,

I had thought as much — but can you imagine !!!!! Hopefully something that destructive wouldn't be done today!

Gar

Pharmacist Ernst Maigatter was born in 1885, served from 1917 to 1918 got an Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse and was promoted to Sanitäts-Unteroffizier.

Frequently, in Honour Cross certificates there are two holes punched into the left side of the certificate — does anyone know the meaning or why this was done?

Just wondering.

Gar

Hello all,

Thanks Lambert — I think much better to use first names.

Christer — yes, I believe the documents are very underrated — please keep this quiet and we'll be able to add more good ones to our collections before the rest wake up!

I also agree with you regarding the bias some collectors have when considering this award.

I have always taken the view that it was an award for honourable service and sacrifice while serving Imperial Germany. It was conceived before the Nazis were, regretfully handed the country. It just happened to be administered and awarded during the Nazi era. I have never thought of it as a Nazi award, but realize many do.

The humble German Honour Cross provides (to my mind) one of the most interesting AND economical items available to collectors in the field of Great War collectables, especially considering it is probably the most common medal ever issued for the Great War by any country. It is all the "extras" that I find particularly interesting and challenging.

There are …

— 3 different medals

— 4 different certificates

— 5 different ribbon widths and 2 types

— A multitude of Cases; Envelopes; Presentation Folders; Ribbon devices including enamel ones; Miniatures; Lapel Pins; Paper items; Kriegs Chroniks; Books

and Books — all that — not to mention well over 200 different manufacturers markings. Probably a lifetime quest.

I have assembled a reasonably good collection (I don't really collect manufacturer's marks) — but there are still many items I am on the lookout for.

Cheers,

Gar

Vielen Dank! Turtle,

I was not aware of this site and would like to thank you for mentioning it — I now have it bookmarked.

Being in German will slow me down a bit but should help my language skills improve — our family is originally from the Rheinland but my 'German' is not what it should be, I'm sorry to admit.

Is there something else besides 'turtle' we can call you?

Gary