Arnim

The guy who was trying to sell the ribbon bar was not "gerst."

Who is the seller who is offering it? Is he offering it as genuine? It looks far too new to be genuine.

Arnim

Unfortunately, there are unscrupulous profit-seekers out there - who can and will take advantage of the reputable businessman's effort to fill the replica demand. All we are asking is for the responsible businessman to take steps to ensure that doesn't happen. Responsible is the key word. Simply arguing that a merchant has the right to take advantage of fools and idiots doesn't sound very responsible in my opinion. But to each his own. And each of us have the right to shun such a merchant. Like I said, I don't think you'll change any minds around here on this point.

You are right about this. There are high-dollar auction houses in Germany selling items puported to be genuine, sometimes even identifying the supposed original owner, which are made-up items. It is pathetic. More pathetic are "ground dug" articles, but that is another matter entirely.

Arnim

I agree, my friends, that it is a noble thing to help young collectors. Collecting and preserving artifacts is good for everyone. Those who make a living out of cheating people by palming off copies as the real thing need to be identified and weeded out; and those who buy reproduction items, "age" them and sell them as artifacts should be flogged.

Again, I don't think that we need to worry about Gerst ot Quarterdeck. I doubt that they use "period" thread or even genuine brackets and ribbons. Their work, pretty as it might be, can easily be seen as copies. How many genuine Rommel and Red Baron ribbon bars could there be out there, and why do the cost so little? If I saw a Picasso sketch on eBay with a starting price of $0.99 and no reserve, I would be suspicious!

Yes, I'm very lucky to have inherited so much history. I have always honored my family "things," whether they are my Opa's medals or my Oma's opera glasses, they are a link to the past and this is what we do here - we preserve and honor the past and those who made it possible for all of us to be here today.

A final question. I have read so much about UV- and "glowing" fakes. What glows - synthetics, modern dyes? If I put all of my dad's and grandfathers' ribbons under black light, none of them would glow?

Arnim

PS to Kev in Romania - my father was in Romania with the German XXX Army Corps - he loved it and took lots of pictures! He was also in Bessarabia and the Crimea with your brave soldiers. Your leaders gave him the Crown Order.

Hello my friend from the Old Dominion, the "Cavalier Commonwealth."

I agree with most of what you say. Groups of like-minded gentlemen are hard to find these days. Even the word "gentleman" has lost its meaning, These days the word is even applied to murderers and child-molestors. But I digress.

By saying that one gets what one pays for I simply mean this: If you pay a low price, you should not be surprised to receive low quality, and convesely, if you pay more, you should expect more. This is not always true, but it is a good rule of thumb. This also applies to authenticity. These days many copies are as good or even better than the originals, but they are copies and they should be cheaper. There is a market for good copies. It is broader than the market for originals.

I like this website very much, but I don't have much patience for "stuck up" types with their noses in the air. I have been interested in "miliatria" most of my life and I am lucky to have had a family which "saved everything" so I have a large collection which I did not have to buy. I never had to worry about authenticy. I know where my grandfather's WWI Soldbuch came from and that my father's Iron Cross certificate signed by Admiral Frisius is the real thing. This website is a way for others to corroborate their items. That is a good thing; but it is not a good thing for members to ID an item as a reproduction and then attack the maker as some kind of charlatan.

Arnim

UVA, Class of '67

"gerst" could be closer than you think....

The truth is that there are lots of "Gersts" out there' but they are not the ones we have to worry about. The real danger is presented by those who manufacture and sell fakes by the hundreds and sell them as genuine, whether they are ribbon bars, pills, medals or whatever. One can buy GMC or Ford parts or go to the autop parts place to get a copy for half the price. Who is to say which part is better? You get what you pay for.

Arnim

Give me a break - we are talking about ribbon bars here - a fake ribbon bar won't kill you. Collectibles are a hobby, a diversion, not a matter of life and death. If people are so engrossed in a simple hobby that it causes them to make personal judgements about other people, they need to get a life! This is 2011, not 1897!

What amazes me are all the pictures of fakes that are posted on this website by ill-informed buyers and nobody says a word. The fake that prompted this particular thread was a bar offered on eBay which was listed as a reproduction. It doesn't taker a genious to identify that one. An example of what I am talking about is a picture of a dozen or so ribbon bars, presumably Saxon, which inludes the St. Heinrich Order on almost all of them. There were about 1800 of these awarded and 70% of these were to fallen soldiers. 300 Albrechts Orden were awarded with swords and crown. There were three of these in the photo, one next to an EKII (1914) with a "mini." I always thought that minis were worn on the Iron Cross ribbon, to indicate the frist class award, by civilians! What's the story there?

PT Barnum said that a fool was born every minute. I am afraid we must count a number of these among us. I say, "chill out" and worry something more important, like taxes!

Arnim

I just had a thought my friends - what an experience!

One can buy American medals all over the place these days, and ribbons, devices and brackets. There are websites which sell custom0made ribbon bars. Are these fakes or copies or are they the real thing? I am a retired Army officer, Are only the medals I received in a box with a certificate genuine? Are the extras I purchased later fakes? I had more than one marksmanship badge. One was purchased after I retired. Is that one a fake and the ones I purchased at the various posts while on active duty genuine? Help me out here.

Another thought. My mother had a beautiful print, a copy of a painting by one of the Flemish Masters - is that one a "cheap fake" too? It is mine now. I love it. It is beautiful, but it is a copy. Why are medals and ribbon bars any different. Beauty is beauty and has value for its own sake.

Arnim

A manufacturer is not responsible for the misuse of a legally made and sold product. The idiot who takes someone else's prescription without ready it or who tries to trim his bushes with a lawn mower shares almost all of the responsiblity of his actions. There is a price for being an idiot.

The fellow sells his ribbon bars as copies, and his ribbons and devices are very accurate. The workmanship is excellent. He makes no bones about his offerings - COPIES.

I see no harm in this. Not everyone can afford an original and who among us can really tell an original from a copy these days, who? Certainly not me.

Arnim

When my mom and dad married in June, 1944, dad's shoulderboards did not have the green cord nor did his collar tabs have the white cord. He did not transfer to the TSD until August, 1944. Do you know when these changes took place?

I posted photos earlier.

Arnim

Very nice indeed. Thanks for sharing.

Arnim

Kampfgruppe Nettelbeck was a regiment-size unit at Festung Dunkirk. The fortress was commanded by a Navy man, Admiral Frisius, and had LW, Heer, SS and Marine troops as well as foreigners. My father was there as a Heer officer.

Do you have more information on your man, a photo perhaps?

Arnim

Fakers don't just mass-produce perfect stuff - they even "age" their bars to make them look real. Why rule out a tear? Maybe the torn ribbon was the only genuine one he had in his supply box. I don't agree with the comment about guys liking gold swords and crowns. Why not add the oak leaves too! None of my relatives embellished their ribbon bars.

The fact that you have seen many "incorrect" bars doesn't prove anything, excect maybe that you might have been duped by a faker! Remember, fakers are craftsmen too, and many are very "original," often copying strange-looking one-of-a-kind ribbon bars that sell for plenty.

Great stiching is very nice - my mother was a seamstress. Her sticking was as good in 1999 when she passed away as in 1940 when she was married!

Arnim

My guess is that this is a "mish-mash" bar made up up of parts - a Frankensteinspange.

The Honor Cross takes bronze, not gold swords.

The Meiningen ribbon normally takes no crown, but if a crown is mounted, it would not be gold, but bronze.

There is a strange tear on the Zaehringer Loewen ribbon - how is that explained? The damage is confined to that ribbon only and the one next to it is unscathed - not logical.

The back of the bar is very strange.

Genuine parts do not a genuine ribbon bar make.

Alles Gute, Leute!

Here is a closer shot of the Litzen.

The photographer flipped the photo!

Arnim

My parents: wedding photo was taken 3 June 1944, in Berlin.

I had trouble posting a large enough photo. Dad's Litzen do not have the white trim on the edges but the shoulder boards have the HV devices and look like the ones in his 1943 portrait. When did the Litzen change?

Arnim

Here is the photo taken in 1947 at the French camp at Mulsanne.

Arnim

Yes, I have his TSD orders. He shipped out to France in late August, 1944. The last photo I have of him before that was taken on 3 June and he has the HV insignia in that one and his orders transferring him to France still referred to his Beamte rank. His 1947 photo has no white on the Lizen or Klappen and no mercury device either. Do you think the Waffenfarbe was blue or green? Dad was at Dunkik from late August 1944 to June 1945. The city was never captured.

Arnim

My dad became a Stabsintendant in August, 1944. The only photos I have of him after June 1944 were taken as a POW in 1947. Unfortunately they are black and white. I guess his Waffenfarbe would have been blue (he was a paymaster) but there are no devices on his boards. Were these devices readily available to men in the field after August, 1944? I would think that uniform items would be way down on the supply chain!

Arnim

Trying to determine a soldier's ribbons from a photograph is very difficult at best, folly at worst. The way to determine the awards on a specific bar in a photo requires one to first date the photo. Trying to identify awards from a photo alone won't work. A good example is von Rundstedt. He had different ribbon bars for different unforms! His Sudetenland ribbon didn't look "right"either (when he wore it). Look at Rommel's single Italian ribbon. It is solid blue. In the photos it looks like "stripes." His award is the silver bravey medal which takes a blue ribbon.

My advice: forget the photos - rely on the records.

The awards I cited for this officer are correct.

Arnim

I didn't go by the picture - I went by the awards he had.

A.

Ribbons often look wrong in black and white photos. These are his (ribbon bar) awards.

Arnim

<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">This is Olbricht's ribbon bar

<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

1. EKII 1914 with 1939 Spange

2. Ritterkreuz des Militär-St. Heinrichs-Ordens

3. Ritterkreuz I. Klasse des Albrechts-Ordens mit Schwertern

4. Ritterkreuz II. Klasse des Sächsischen Verdienstordens mit Schwertern

5. Ritterkreuz II. Klasse des Albrechts-Ordens mit Schwertern

6. Ehremkreuz

7. Treudienst – I Klasse

8. Treudienst – III Klasse

9. Anschluss

10. Sudentenland

11. Hungary – WWI Remembrance

12. Bulgaria – WWI Remembrance

Do you have any pictures of Slovak ribbon bars of WWII?

Arnim

Rundsted's ribbons on this bar:

Iron Cross (1914) with 1939 Spange

Hohenzollern House Order ? Knights Cross with swords & crown

Saxony - Albrecht Order 1^st Class with Swords

China Denkmuenze ? 1902

Wehmacht Long Service ? Class I

Wehmacht Long Service ? Class III

Prussia - Crown Order ? Class IV

1 October 1938 Remembrance Medal

Prussia ? Kaiser Wilhelm Remembrance Medal - 1897

I have been talking to a German friend of mine about these two photos - they are not the same bar!

We conclude that the first photo has the following ribbons:

Iron Cross (1914) with 1939 Spange

Hohenzollern House Order ? Knights Cross with swords & crown

Saxony - Albrecht Order 1^st Class with Swords

China Denkmuenze ? 1902

Wehmacht Long Service ? Class I

Wehmacht Long Service ? Class III

Prussia - Red Eagle Order ? Class IV

Prussia - Crown Order ? Class IV

Prussia ? Kaiser Wilhelm Remembrance Medal - 1897

The second bar is totally different. It has:

Iron Cross (1914) with 1939 Spange

Hohenzollern House Order ? Knights Cross with swords & crown

Honor Cross - 1934

China Denkmuenze ? 1902

Wehmacht Long Service ? Class I

Wehmacht Long Service ? Class III

Prussia ? Crown Order ? Class IV

Sudetenland Medal ? 1 October 1938

Prussia ? Kaiser Wilhelm Remembrance Medal - 1897