Tim B

Maker's mark for CEJ.

Here's a better one of the eagle style for CEJ.

Well Shane, I'd wait for others like Jacques to comment here, but in my opinion, this one is definately a bad one as initially thought. - The eagle styles are wrong for CEJ (Juncker). - The center swastika is wrong for CEJ as is the roundel. - The catch is wrong (may be replaced, but I think it is original to this cross). - The CEJ mark is pretty distinctive and I can't see yours too well here, but I assume it probably is not good either. I'll post a couple PICS of my silver CEJ 900 for comparsion, but there are a few threads here in the Spanish section for comparison. Tim Here's a closeup of the center and note the eagles, roundel, and swastika. Note the upward slope between the swastika arms.

Shane, Larger PICS with some details would be better so you can get valid opinions, but I don't have a good feeling for this one already. Based on the current PICS, there are areas that look wrong for CEJ, but I would need larger/better PICS to make sure. Tim

Sorry Paul, Was drafting my comments and you beat me to it. Tim

Dieter, Well....that's a new one on me. You are correct, the three ray style is that of an 8th class award. Perhaps someone made one up thinking an all silver medal was supposed to be an 8th class award and didn't know better. The quality looks very good and original. Where is Paul Murphy on this one? We'll have to wait and see what he thinks. Tim

:P Yes, something I actually learned collecting German militaria and believe it or not, Detlev Niemann was the one that gave me that advice long ago when his Friday feeding frenzies were at their highest. I have found that when you don't see the items you want--in the quality or condition you want--don't accept lessor items, just collect something else in the meantime. Eventually, what you really want will come available, sometimes cheaper and you don't have to regret your purchase of the lessor quality item or worry how to offload it and not lose money. Paitience grasshopper! Tim :beer:

Rather than start a new topic here, I'll just add since we are on the subject of rosettes: there seem to be an significant number of them (mostly higher classes, Rising Sun and Sacred Treasure) on Y!JA - but they seem to be listed as "new" - so is there somebody/company out there making knock-offs, and if so, how does one distinguish between those and authentic ones, has anybody seen these first hand?? Dieter, I heard of that venue, but I could never find it. Can you send me a link or PM with the info as I am curious as well. I have heard of issues regarding this site before. Thanks! Tim

Let's try that again: http://www.jacar.go.jp/english/index.html http://p2.hostingprod.com/@imperialjapanme....com/index.html http://www.xavierb.net/japan/ (need Java) http://www.ne.jp/asahi/tonekousyou/yukikaz...u/f_kunsyou.htm http://www8.cao.go.jp/english/decoration/index.html

Hi Dieter, Most welcomed and please keep in mind that I am not the primary source of good information, but guys like Paul Murphy have helped me out immensely when I first started out and the best recommendation is to ask questions on the forums. I will certainly help where I can! Instead of trying to answer each question here, what I can do is include some links to various Japanese sites that have LOTS of great information and you can hopefully glean what you need to know from these sites and we can go from there. So, here goes.... Tim http://www.jacar.go.jp/english/index.html Imperial Japan Medals and Badges Orders and Medals of Japan ?M?? Decoration Bureau Not sure if the links actually work or if you have to cut & paste as when I tried to add the links direct, I was dropped out of this site. Let me try it and I may have to go to the sites to get the actual http addresses. SEE BELOW

Yes, I agree with that statement Paul; as it appears most if not all records were destroyed in the war (WWII), we may never really know either way without some good collections with provenance or coming directly from the families. Even then??? Here is another example that I still don't know for sure. Two Sacred Treasures; the one on the left is cleary Meiji, but it came with a 6th class award. My guess is NOT! But, what is it supposed to be to? The one on the right is clearly pleated and what appears to be typical for a 4th class award (modeling the larger rosette on the suspension ribbon). I have two Meiji era 4th class awards from different makers and both have this style rosette. So... Could this be where the one on the left is actually what a Meiji era 4th class is supposed to look like; without the round border? Can be very confusing, but they are still relatively cheap compared to German awards! Tim

I have noticed a slight variation in styles sometimes but think this is more due to hand manufacturing instead of being attributed to different manufacturers or timelines. Note how high one is and how much deeper the center is set. Both 5th class Showa awards.

Here's a closeup of Meiji (L) vs Showa ® 5th class rosettes. You can see the difference in the lines (rays). This Meiji piece actually came in a Meiji era 4th class set, which appears to be common practice, at least on ebay. Tim

Not meaning to hijack the thread or get too far off topic, but as Dieter asked questions on lapel devices... Here is a quick matrix of the different level rosettes. Keep in mind two things; first, the Golden Kite did not have an 8th class award, 7th was the lowest. Second, the patterns on the lapels are the same for other awards as mentioned above, I just show the Rising Sun for quick and easy reference. Tim

Hi Dieter, First, the last two PICS showing the 5th class & 5th/3rd class awards are not mine; they were taken off past ebay auctions. I try to save those items that are of interest to me. I wish they were mine, but to reiterate a point on rarity and Paul's comment on prices, the 3rd class award sold for $4,255. and the 5th class ranged from $750. - $1125. depending on who wanted it and of course the little things like lapel devices and issue paper that might be included. Again, all depends on "who just has to have it" and if there are more than one, then the bidding wars jack the price up, sometimes to insane amounts. Second, The rosettes for the 6th and 5th class are different; the 6th class (lower grade award) has six rays, while the 5th class award has eight rays. This is true of all the awards (Rising Sun; Sacred Treasure; etc.). Now, to your question on different rosette styles, this one is a bit more fuzzy and Paul can probably help here more than I and I hope he puts some good examples up on this thread or at least in any upcoming book on Japanese awards as many of these ebay auctions have "sets" that are not all original to each other and some consider them made up for sale. Truth is, I don't think most of the ebay sellers really know (or care) about the differences. Anyway, you noticed that some have narrower rays in the rosette. I believe, and correct me if I am wrong here Paul, that the earlier (Meiji and possibly Tashio) rosettes had these narrower lines (rays) and the Showa period had the thicker rays. We are talking 6th class and higher as the 7th and 8th class awards actually had ribbon "bows" for Meiji (and Tashio?) era pieces. I'll try to make up a PIC to post the various differences in levels and eras later. The part where I get confused is when we are looking at the 4th class and higher awards on the Meiji/Tashio era pieces. I know the rosette was pleated in the center on this level, but just what the Meiji styles werre supposed to look like is still a question for me. Of all the Meiji era Rising Suns I have seen for sale, almost all of them come with a Meiji era 5th class rosette or the same rosette I see with Showa period pieces. Take your time and learn here before sinking a lot of money into it Dieter. Paul is probably the most knowledgable person here on Japanese awards, so he's the man to ask! Hope that helped. Tim

Another one with the paper and of course...a 3rd class!

Hi Paul! Thanks, as I sometimes think I should have held off. I seen one recently sell for under $200.!!! in the same condition and thought, Sh1t! I paid too much. You just never know on ebay. Same for those 3-legged Raven badges. I have two, one green and one red, mint in cases; one with the outer white cardboard box and was told they are very rare! Lately, I see them go for less than half what I spent. Maybe its the economy and more people with less disposable income, not sure. What I don't see very often is the 5th class Golden Kite in excellent condition go for anything I consider affordable. Here's a couple what I mean. Tim First PIC: 2 5th class awards, both near mint, little to no enamel damage; note the one on the right is actually a Meiji or Tashio era piece!! :speechless1:

Dieter, Paul is correct, the 6th class is much rarer than the 7th class, but IMHO, this price is almost double what you can get them for. It's ebay and all depends on the amount of bidders and as always, comes down to "just who has to have it" that makes the price what it is. I have also seen where two bidders bid an extra high bid thinking that no one else will possibly bid that high, just to secure the deal and then find out someone else did the same; the result is an extra high selling price and probably a regretful winner. Be paitient, there will be another one and I'll bet not that far off in the future. I paid less than $300. for this one, cased in mint condition and have seen them go for much less than that lately, so don't worry! Tim :cheers:

Well, now that the thread has had its cherry popped! Are there more differences between the dates on these? Here are the three 1914-18 CdG and you can see how the dies are different. I would say the one on the right is probably a late manufacture as the stamping is weaker and overall the cross quality is not as clean as the other two. Tim

I know, another old thread dug up from the past, but this one hits the nail on the head so to speak... Is there a way to identify or date these crosses? What I understand is the medal was instituted between World Wars, but anyone having a combatant card was entitled to it, back dated to WW1 and up to ...? So, the question for me is this: Is there a way to distingush when one was made or awarded? Are there any identifying differences between the years? Thanks! Tim

Hello Veteran! Very nice and always a treat to see those crosses with the extra palms/stars and especially if the history is known. I am on the lookout for another 1917 that has a little more to it, but couldn't resist this one with the AISNE pin. Wasn't sure what thread would be best, but I hated to go all the way back to 2005! Always nice to see other's collections, thanks! Tim

I do have more, just haven't photographed everything and need to get it done I guess. :rolleyes:

So many old threads on these I thought I would just add to this one instead of starting another new thread discussing the same old topic. Here are my WWI Croix De Guerre; from left to right: 1st two are 1914-1915; 1916; 1917 w/ AISNE pin; last three are all 1914-1918 but are all slightly different on the date styles. Not sure what the AISNE pin is, perhaps a unit badge or commemorative item of the Aisne campaign. Unofficially worn on the cross of course, but I really liked the looks of it! Enjoy! Tim

Close up of the pin and mark in question. Tim

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