Tim B

Hi Keven! Yes, I have read all the threads here (at least I think I have) and seen this one. It's a few years old already and I thought there may be more information by now. You always seem to find one tidbit of information here and there about one of them, but I can't seem to find anything substantial on the "lot" or what was changed and when/why. I've heard the star (center PIC above) is more scarce, but with so many apparent variations, scarce to what? And, have these been restruck as so many other medals have? IF so, can you tell the differences between period and post war versions? Lots of questions and thought it would be good to restart the topic. See who is interested at least. Thanks! Tim

While were asking questions on the swords... Here are two more examples, these two are Leopold II medals. I see the differences in the medal and note that one is bilingual (Flemish) but the swords are of different style. Is this something that changed with the timeline? The bilingual version is later I understand. Again, as in the examples above of the Leopold I's, the ribbons have the swords but not the medal themselves. Tim

Hello again, I still have some questions regarding the crossed swords even after looking at Hendriks great site! I'll post a couple of examples and maybe get some specific answers using these to go from. Here we see two Leopold I medals, one has the swords on the ribbon but not the medal itself and the other has the swords device as part of the medal but the ribbon is plain. Are these correct as shown? Was there a difference in the award? Also, did the regulations stipulate how the swords were worn on ribbon? You'll notice in this case the swords on the ribboned medal are pointed downward and most I have seen are opposite. Thank you! Tim

Hello again! More questions as I try to manage my way through the French minefield. I have seen two varieties of the French "Vichy version" Croix De Guerre and wanted to know if both are acceptable and if there is a timeline difference or if one is more scarce than the other? I have seen both reverse styles on regular CDG's, so maybe the answer is more generic than I think. Another case of different manufacturers??? Thanks! Tim

I've been searching for information dicussing the different patterns of the French Wound Medal and want to know if there is a specific timeline to each style shown below, or if it was just a case of different manufacturers? I believe the one on the left is the first issue and the other two are later, but are they all WWI? Note the difference on the top suspension of the star. Many thanks as always! Tim

Thank you for that! That information is good to know and I'm sure will help anyone trying to timeline different French pieces. This is a very nice piece and I can see quality really went into making it, but I am "trying" to keep my collection to military and prior to the end of WWII. So tempting sometimes. Cheers! Tim

Hello, Yes, it appears to be a very nice luxury model. I do not own the piece, it's listed on an auction site, but the seller had it listed as WWI with some other items. I have sent him some information, but I don't think he cares to change it at this point. I just asked as I am still learning on the French and Belgian awards. Many thanks again! Tim

Rick, More Japanese books on Decorations & Medals. Not the same book, but one may be of the same author. Tim http://p2.hostingprod.com/@imperialjapanme....com/books.html

Thank you for the confirmation! Tim

Am I correct in that this is a 4th Republic era piece? It has a single star in place of 1870. Tim

While checking over my Rising Sun medals for maker marks this weekend, I double-checked that second Showa Enthronement Medal that I posted above in post #4 and noticed it is also marked with something that almost resembles a radiation symbol in high relief. I didn't take any pictures yet, but will eventually get around to it. Tim

Well, I finally checked out my other awards and interestingly enough, the 5th class RS with the larger suspension ring also was marked in the same location! In my case, the letters are "JL". I can't see where "CF" and "JL" would be a designation for the same manufacturer, but if the larger rings can be linked to a specific timeline and we check other medals with these larger rings, maybe we can deduct some possible makers from there? I have seen other Rising Suns (in different award levels) for sale with these larger rings and most have had the silver lettering on the case, as does my 5th class award. Not sure if those examples are 100% original sets or if, in this case, John's 6th class medal was originally in this case shown with the gold lettering. Does anybody else have Rising Sun medals with the larger size suspension ring, and are they marked in similar fashion? Tim

Well that's a first for me John and I see I'll have to recheck mine for marks at this location. One of my fourth class is marked on the arms between the Paulina leaves and the star, so I assumed all the 6th class and higher RS were marked in the same location. The medal you show also brings up another question for me. Notice how large the suspension ring is on your medal; I have one 5th class that has this larger diameter ring as well and I wonder why these are this way as most have a smaller ring that holds the medal closer to the ribbon. The larger ring allows the medal to hang down quite a bit and isn't as eye appealing to me, but wonder if it was designed for a reason that way? Tim

Paul, I understand you probably have this information in your book (which I still don't have btw ) and wanted to know...was it common for everyone to be a member/contributor of the Red Cross? I ask, as almost every bar I see there is at least one version of a Red Cross medal on it. Was it like a "suggested" donation for soldiers/sailors to make? Tim

Thank you Larry! Tim

Thanks Paul! Yes, that would make sense that somebody who didn't know probably made it up so it "looked good" to the eye back in the day. Like Rick pointed out, there is no period service medal that would have been awarded for service in WWI, which would have been awarded if the person were entitled to the victory medal. Cheers! Tim

Here's one example/comparison of what I am asking about. You can see a quality difference in enamel and level of detail, but is there more here to the story? Are there current copies or reissue pieces??? Tim

Okay, next question: Have these orders been faked yet? I see everything else in the world of collecting has so I have to assume these have as well. The reason I ask is, I see some of these medals with different colored berries (red, orange, yellow) on the laurel leaves and some that don't have any at all. I see lions that appear flat while others are clearly three-dimensional. Is this just a case of different manufacturers or something I need to look out for? Tim

I haven't started to collect bars yet and am still learning here, so as this auction has already ended I figure it can't hurt to ask questions about ribbon bars in general and this is a good example. Here's a 9-place bar that, IMO, has ribbons out of proper sequence. However, looking at the back of the bar, it appears not to have been played with; at least not for many years. The first two (Order of the Sacred Treasure) and (Order of the Rising Sun) I see often interchanged on both ribbon & medal bars and I have to ask, was it a case of which was awarded first, last, or some other governing decree? If the Sacred Treasure is considered the lowest form of long/meritorius service award, then why would it ever supercede an award of the Rising Sun? The third ribbon was identified in the auction as a Showa 6-9 medal (31-34 China Incident Medal) and is placed prior to the 4th ribbon (WW1 Victory Medal); then (Showa Era Enthronement Medal) which would be circa 1928; then the (37-45 China Incident Medal). Am I missing something here or are these out of sequence? I would have expected to see the Incident Medals either before or after the Victory Medal and Enthronement Medal, but thought the Incident Medals would have been sequentially mounted. Would the Enthronement Medal be placed after Campaign Medals? U.S. campaign medals are mounted last issued first (or given higher precedence); was it the same for Japanese awards or was it reversed? Last or bottom row; the (Emperor's Visit to Japan Commemorative Medal), followed by the (National Foundation Merit Medal), both Manchukuo Empire era pieces, circa 1933-1935 and last but not least the (Red Cross Membership Medal), which always seems to be last or least significant on bars. So, I have to ask; Looking at the reverse setup, I don't see any indications that it has been reworked in any way. What does everybody think? Tim

Nice site Hendrik!! I think I'm getting it. The Order of Leopold I's have the red ribbon and the Order of Leopold II's have the blue ribbon with black stripe. The medals are different as well. I was confused and I have seen items listed calling both one or the other and see this must have been incorrect. Tim

Thank you Hendrik! Tim

Dieter, Just search the various threads here; Gordon Williamson and others have started threads sometime back with a lot of great information and posted nice examples for starters. Tim :beer:

Hendrik, Thank you! Okay, still learning here and that response actually surprised me as it seems almost natural to think the "I & II" would have stood for Leopolds 1 & 2. So, I guess I have to ask then, is it the crown style that actually dates these pieces? Another question concerning the military versions with swords, does a piece that has the sword device under the crown also have to have the swords ribbon attachment? Beautiful awards! Tim

Hi Dieter, I think, for the most part anyway, you're pretty safe from fakes. I heard the higher-end decorations are copied, but you can still get 8th to 3rd class awards pretty easily IMO. The WW1 Victory Medals have been copied, but you can still get originals without trying too hard. The thing I see the most is the mixing of items to make up a complete set; case, medal, lapel device and maybe the award document. Often these are intermixed with Showa/Meiji/Tashio period items, but again, you can usually figure them out to some extent. Ask guys like Paul Murphy if in doubt. Sometimes you see a 7th class Golden Kite artificially tarnished to look golden and passed off as a higher 6th class, but I don't see that happening too often. Best, Tim

Hi Rick! Yes, understand and I think even some of the Japanese awards like the Rising Suns used some form of epoxy or adhesive to fix the red centers as we see some of those slightly offset. I actually passed on this particular Leopold even though it is nice and has the "I" on the reverse. Like coins, I just like my items with straight lines. Hopefully I can find another and one with no enamel chips! Speaking of the "I" or "1" on the reverse; was there ever a concensus what this actually represented? I read that some thought it referred to different makers, others thought it referenced Leopold 1st, 2nd... If that's the case, what about the ones that do not have a "I" or "II" in the center? Is there a way to date those and I see differences in the lettering designs and open centers, does that indicate periods or different makers? Lots of questions and I understand few english references on these Belgian orders. Many thanks guys!! Tim