Tim B

Hi Josef!

No problems and please post your 4th Class when you can. I actually started this thread, somewhat based on your recent Kite questions, to see if more examples might come forward and we might be able to discern some more concrete evidence one way or the other.

Yes, of course, entirely possible that this is simply another case of mis-matching sets in order to sell an item as complete. Honestly, this is my current thought on the example with the Meiji case but, I would like to pursue the possibility for the sake of discussion. Truth is, there is not a lot of good, referenced material out there that really gets into the details that we see in other countries but, you never know what might develop.

I would love to see another example that has the outer lines extending down further and marked with this letter "M". That would indicate to me it was not just a manufacturer's difference.

Tim :cheers:

Last shot shows a front comparison of the two.

Now, my questions center around what we have to come to believe when looking at the lines in the paulina leaves.

These two are near identical and a real Meiji era award would have the outer lines extending further down than those of the Showa period examples. But, could it be just a case of different manufacturers and the lines really don't make a difference? I honestly do not know and hopefully this is another area that Rich can dig into during his research.

If we find out that we can't base the period of awards on these lines, that could really open up the possibility of many of these ODM's were seeing for sale, not made up as we currently suspect but, just coming from different sources.

Kind of why I quit collecting these until more definitive answers came out.

Thoughts?

Tim

Sorry, my pics stink as I am fighting a cold this weekend and it's wiping me out!

This one is marked with the letter "M" on the left suspension arm (looking from the front) between the paulina leaves and the sunburst. Assume the "M" is still indicative of the Osaka Mint.

Front & back:

Again, inside the case, which has a more darker blue (almost black) interior than the previous Showa example with the common reddish-purple.

Also note, the rosette; though of an earlier style with the thinner lines, is incorrect for a 4th Class award. IMO, this is probably for a 5th Class Rising Sun (Meiji era). This is where hopefully Rich can find out more information on these in his upcoming quest.

Here's my 2nd example: Note the Meiji era case.

And, the front/back of the medal:

There are no maker's marks on the medal or suspension ring that I could find.

Inside the case: Note the rosette is pleated, correct for the 4th Class

Hi guys,

I've had these two 4th Class orders for a few years now and wanted to show them off and ask what some thought of the one with the Meiji era case.

All comments welcome

First up is an example that is clearly Showa era in my opinion. The case, medal, and rosette are all correct by what we have come to consider the right details for a Showa era award.

Tim

Hi Dieter,

I don't want to trip all over your thread anymore here but will start a new thread on two 4th Class awards I have. It kind of shows why I stopped collecting Japanese ODM's for awhile.

Tim

You should see what some collectors are starting to ask for very common and average conditioned items on another forum.

Well, like I said before Dieter, be glad you started collecting these when you did and were able to get what you did at those prices as I do not think we are going back to those days anymore.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Just joking, however, best not to jinx the delivery by talking about it too much.

Regards

Brian

Oh, well as long as its not coming from Austria you should be okay. Oh, wait a minute....

Regards,

Tim

Hi Kevin,

No, I think you called it correctly here, these were "campaign" bars. There were several battles that never had a bar or other form of recognition. I know there were veterans who thought other bars should have been warranted because of the tremendous effort and loss of men in those specific actions (i/e: Verdun, Chateau Thierry, etc.). So, I could see quite easily where a member that no longer was active duty and required to conform to uniform standards would add those after-market bars to show off what battles/area he served in.

Of course, I also imagine there were more than a few that simply added items for embellishment for one reason or another.

I would think these would be collectable if coming from a known or documented group where we could trace the individual serviceman to the extra bars and they in fact matched his actual participation in those battles. Though it would not be "legit" in the true sense of correctness, no one could argue it was true to the actual history of the man who was awarded the medal.

Tim :cheers:

Hi Jim,

No, that last comment was actually Pavel asking, not me. I only included the link to the main thread you, Rob, myself and many others have already spent several hours on. So much information there already, I thought it was the best source of information.

Tim :beer:

Hi Josef,

I believe the concensus is, that the silver lettered cases were wartime produced but I am not sure exactly "when" during the war it changed. Understand it was a cost savings measure. Paul would know more on that and probably be able to read that Kanji tape.

I've seen these tape labels on other items and have one on a 5th Class Sacred Treasure.

Tim

Hi Brian,

Not sure why you would anger anyone, especially if you are the one that got it? Hope to see more of it later.

Tim

thanks Paul, i guess my set dates from showa-period before 1945?

there was another one on ebay (not mine) that was sold recently

My link

josef

That would be my take based on the length of the rays. You'll note the one on the eBay auction you linked to was actually a Meiji era 6th Class Rising Sun. Not a bad price either!

Thanks for showing!

Tim

The leather case was a private purchase item. They are very rare and difficult to find, even in Japan. This is a lovely set, the characters on the case correspond to the Japanese name of the Rising Sun 6th class.

Of course, it's the lower three characters. This is the first leather case I've seen and it appears to be in excellent condition!

Tim

First one I've seen. Do you know what the Kanji reads?

Tim

Hi Josef,

Yes, could be worse. Considering you are not seeing these as often these days, any are better than none!

I'll have to check my Meiji Kites this weekend as I think I have either two different Meiji or Tashio 7th Class that have slightly different details to one another. Gives me a reason to rephotograph them which is something I have been putting off for a long time now.

Tim

Hi Josef,

Perhaps, but if you look at the lower set of roundels and compare your (L) Meiji to the two examples in post #2, you'll see the spacing is very similar, where as the one ® in post #1 shows these more closely spaced.

We don't know positively what die traits were indicative of each era unfortunately and this could be simply a case of different manufacturers. It would seem, if the design was changed to look different between eras, then the change would be more noticeable than just a small gap in one roundel. My thoughts anyway.

Tim :cheers:

Hi Bovec,

Try this link, though you may have to go through some pages to get to these bars specifically: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/17245-ww1-victory-medals-of-the-world/

Tim :cheers:

Hi Josef,

I would agree with the dating in Post #2 but, aren't both Kites in Post #1 Meiji examples? Maybe its the angles and shadows in the PIC's.

Nice collection!

Tim

Hi Demir,

Thanks for the confirmation. I thought this style had a wider pin as well, possibly the style with the (*) on the pin.

Tim

Hi Kev!

Thanks for posting those, I have a better idea and some points to look for next time I have ribbon questions. Never knew there was such a thickness difference between original and modern remakes. Also good to see the thread differences.

Thanks!

TIm