Tim B

Okay, enough details, now some shields and getting towards some items to consider.

Here's the first, a rather nice conditioned shield and one that was used for the majority of the detailed shots.

Tim

And, now to the right side of the shield. Note the square (almost like an open-end socket) shape and the far right details. Sort of reminds me of one of those Pacific Northwest totem pole animals.

Tim

The next area I want to show is towards the left side of the shield. Note the particular shapes of the two areas called out. The lower point almost looks like a bird's web-foot.

Tim

The center area of all Krim shields have the same general land mass and coastline details, but on the Deumer shields, that little center "island" is always this fairly squarish or upside down pyramid shape. Note also the long, what I often think of as the "anteater's nose" and note how the contours of the upper edge and ends look like.

Tim

Let's start with the numerals. Note the "1" is considerably shorter and the "2" has a shorter horizontal tail and kind of a bullbous nose. Note also, how the numerals "4" have very short vertical legs.

Tim

I thought I would start a discussion on a specific maker in hopes that it might generate a more, in-depth look, at shields and perhaps generate some higher interest for the shield collectors out there. Many collectors are always asking if something is real or not and I hope this type of thread helps those that are not used to looking for the small details that often associate or differentiate the different makers and genuine from fake shields on the market.

Please, do not turn this into another one of those, is this real or how much is it worth(?) type threads.

In this case, I would like to discuss the Deumer Krim, as I have yet to add any to my personal collection and wanted to get some thoughts on this particular maker prior to purchasing one down the road.

I will be using different photos obtained from various sources (dealer sites/private collection pieces) so, if I use one of your shields, take no offense as I use these particular shots as an aid in identifying original examples. I have photoshop'd the PICs so each has the same color background to make them more or less the same to the eye. I wanted to remove all dealer watermarks but, it would have removed details as well, so I left them. I might refer to Sascha Weber's book for referenced page numbers and this is referencing his 1st edition dated 2005. I do not have his more recent revision.

So, to start...

The first shot shows a typical Krim shield with certain areas highlighted. This style Krim is shown in Weber's book on page 26, though this example does not have the round wire pins as shown in the book. Instead, it has the typical flat-style often seen on these shields.

Note the head is circled in red. We will come back to the head differences towards the end but, right now, I want to point out the yellow circled areas and will be showing close-ups of those in posts to follow. There are other areas to compare, but I thought these areas were the easist to point out for now. What I want the others to observe is that in each follow-on example, the areas circled in yellow remain virtually the same, except where wear might show some minor trait differences.

Tim

Hey Phil,

Nice couple of shields!

As for this comment:"I was very pleased to find this beauty now all I have to do is somehow think of a way of hiding the credit card statement before the wife sees it but then I am sure all us collectors have had to do this on occasions." Ah, no, whatever are you talking about?

On the scanner issue; you might try to cover the top with a dark colored fabric that keeps the light leaks out and scan without using the actual cover. That might help get the details a bit better. I use an old camera and eventually will need to upgrade as it's only got 3.2 mexapixels. All comes down to lighting and macro focusing.

Tim

Phil,

Post the others here when you got the PICS ready.

Tim

Very nice Terry!

Yes, they aren't getting any cheaper. I see you're missing a Werner, they are outstanding IMO; Hope to have as nice a collection one day. Congrats!

Tim

Hi Phil,

Looks great and in very nice condition! Classic JFS-42 Congrats!

Tim

Here's one of mine :beer:

Hi Rob,



Real quick, back to the US pieces with those repro bars. Here's a composite photo of ones that I think make your point a bit clearer. You can see the die differences in the lettering, stars and the end hubs are plain. The reverse look like the originals.

These are on a medal that resembles the 1st official style in regards to suspension and the medal does not have Frasier's name on it.
Tim

John,

I'm not sure you're reading my comments completely or understanding what I am saying here.

First, I understand the matrix's listed by Nixon, Laslo, etc. are not 100% complete and show only the major combat units that were issued these clasps as a "complete set-up". In that sole regard, these matrix, which were based on official Army directives, are still the best single references to use. The AEF was large and considering the varying timelines and services that had to generate, correct & add to these entitlements post-war, it would take much more than any matrix to identify ALL the possible combinations.

Then you have to account for those that might have missed a specific campaign due to wounds or other circumstances. Add to that, the fact that only about half of those people authorized the medals, ever bothered to receive them and then, who knows, there might be those that still had entitlements to something else from the norm.

So, as stated previously>>> I use the matrix as a GUIDE to get a representative example of each shown. How I collect these is my business.

Second, when I am discussing "iron-clad provenance" to something, I am not referring to published works, matrix's, or official general orders. I am simply stating that to know 100% where a specific item (medal/badge/hat pin, whatever) comes from, you have to have the specific history behind "it", not simply a facsimile or another example of it. You posted some medals earlier trying to justify they were issued to Marine units based on the attachments, but without getting these directly from the vet, family, or in a well-documented group that you can be assured is complete to each piece, then really, all you have is a story or speculation. Now, the story may be true and it may not.

I am not a "new" collector my any means and have seen quite a few stories over the years purporting collections coming out of estates, vet's families, etc., where the combination of items were impossible or simply the item was a fake altogether. I'm sure a lot of these guys collected militaria as well and picked items up as souvenirs over the years. Eventually, somewhere the item becomes "authentic" to those that have it or got it from the reliable source.

I have also seen groups split-up, put back together with items missing or added and now, really, all you have is a group of items that are not 100%. Anyway...

Third, I do understand government contracts as I have been involved with several over the years. If you go back and read my past comments concerning the clasps, it merely addressed the semi-circles being filled in. I do not discuss the stars, lettering, hyphens, etc. I am not sure what you are missing or reading too much into here, but I think Rob understood my comments for what they were.

Bottom line: people collect for various reasons and I will continue to collect for the reasons that make ME happy.

Enjoy your time here.

R,

Tim

Hey Johnny!

On the claim of the two pieces being attributed to the US 4th Div; I am only going off the matrix's listed by Laslo and Nixon. The 4th Division is the only one listed to have this exact set-up. Sure, there could/would be those members from other outfits that might have these and were absent from other campaigns due to wounds, death, etc.

Without ironclad provenances or documented groups, it will be impossible to say for sure 100% at this point. I just try to collect a "representative" piece from each line of the matrix and use those as a guide what to look for.

I don't dispute what Rob is saying on reproduction bars as we see a wide variety of these on the market however, I questioned whether we could say for sure a bar is reproduction solely due to the semi-circles being filled in. As you stated, these are cast and sometimes the dies/molds get dirty and if you have ever been involved in casting, you know there are often imperfections that are common using this technique. Just between my different examples, I can see slight differences in quality or level of details between same-type bars.

Cheers!

Tim

Hi Rob,

Thanks for that clarification; yes, I see on your examples what you are referring to. I will need to take my one 4th Div piece out and examine it closer when I have time and see if there are any indications of hubs that might have broken off the St. Mihiel and Meuse-Argonne bars, or if they just never had any.

Will be interesting to see, as this is the only example where I have two bars that are missing the hubs and they are combined with that official "reissue" DS bar (with pins).

Thanks again!

Tim

Hi Phil,

Getting ready to turn in here and wanted to say, if you ever have doubts or just questions on an item, feel free to ask Peter or I and we will be more than happy to assist as much as possible. I'm sure Chris will as well and know he used to be very knowledgeable on Cholm shields for starters.

You have a more current version of Weber's book, as mine is a small paperback, so not sure how much "new" information is presented in the version you have. Take your time and get them as they become available and you can afford them. No sense in rushing it as the conditions sometimes can vary greatly. Hold out for the "one" you really want to have.

That Maedicke was a lucky shot for me as they are hard to find and almost impossible to find in that condition.

Good hunting!

Tim

Hi Rob,

Just getting ready to hit the sack here and wanted to post this comparison of two 4th Div. pieces. The one on the left is a regular 4th Div. medal with the 5 bars (note the spacers on all except the DS bar) and the one on the right is the medal posted earlier in this thread with the "reissue" type Defensive Sector bar; also 5 bars for the 4th Division.

Note the S. Mihiel and Meuse-Argonne bars. I have to say, other than the lack of spacer tabs on the end, I have a hard time distingushing any differences. Am I missing something here?

Tim

Hi Rob and HAPPY NEW YEAR guys!!

I will have to double check my pieces but, I think the only one that doesn't have the end spacer tabs on a couple of the bars, is that 4th Div medal with the official "re-issue" bar on it. I showed that one earlier in the thread.

As far as the end semi-circled areas, I have seen a lot of variation in quality and level of detail, so I am not sure we can really go by this, can we?

Are you sure the bars are reproduction, or possibly different manufacture or timeline?

Tim

Hi Phil,

Happy New Year!!

On the Krim in question, and I believe the WAF thread you're referencing is one that I made those comments to; it is in my opinion, that the shield is original. I think, as stated in the WAF thread, that most collectors feel this style is genuine however, I understood at one point in time that there were collectors in Russia that questioned the validity of this particular style. I do not have any amplifying information why they felt this way.

I have seen several over the last few years and as stated earlier in this post, appear to have either a black or lime green paper backing. Ones that have different backing are always questioned as possibly having the back cloth replaced. Interestingly, most of the examples I have seen of this style, save only a couple, have slightly softer details and/or corroded high points.

As far as this "type" of shield not being shown in Weber's book on Krim Shields, I don't have that answer. I only have his original (1st) book and understand he has a more in-dept revision, so I can only reference the 1st version. You might try asking him as he is a member at WAF. Could be, he didn't have an example by this maker when initially publishing his book as we see other varieties out there (like Maedicke) that are also not shown.

Hope that helps!

Tim

No Peter,

Actually, I love that shield and was hoping you might fall "victim" to my request!

Actually, I would count on that one being more 100% completely original than the JFS that I have with Panzer backing. The back cloth on mine sure looks original and there are spots where the cloth and shield appear to have been together for quite sometime, the backing is however, not what I would expect to see on a JFS shield.

I would rarely question your items based on past experience with you and your pieces.

Tim

:D

Well, let it go Paul or it will eat you if you let it and we're better than that!

Nothing we can do about it now. If you only knew how many times I had old Department Heads approach me after they transferred and said something stupid like "Chief, I never realized how lucky I was to have a Chief like you..." and while they "had" me, never did a danm thing for me. It's all hollow words to me at that point and they can KMA!

I figure over the course of my career, I lost out on two more Commendation and three Achievement Medals, lost to the same situations you experienced, plus losing the MSM on my last tour as my female department head who never had any experience other than MEPS close to her home, didn't like CPO's and especially disliked MCPO's. After I retired, the new CO came in and fired her and "recommended" she retire.

Worst loss was when a CO wanted to put me up for a Navy/Marine Corps Medal for heroism after receiving a letter from a Canadian CEO and Reserve Naval Officer (via the US attache) after saving him on a bad dive. The Personnel Officer (LTJG/0-2) was pissed at me for not sharing Family Advocacy details on a couple of cases I was working at the time. I was carrying both DAPA & FAR in addition to my regular Ordnance related duties at the time and heavily involved in base consolidation of two commands as we downsized. I reminded her the cases were always stamped CO/XO eyes only and I guess her little ego couldn't handle the idea that she didn't need to know. I always watched her sitting around with the personnel office E-3/4 in the morning getting the local gossip and said I could never trust her to keep her mouth shut. Anyway, she convinced the CO that the action didn't warrant anything higher than a Navy Achievement Medal!!

Acheivement Medals are strictly an administrative type award and any acts of life-saving are, at most, downgraded to nothing lower than Navy Commendation levels for "minor acts". So...been down that dark road more than once.

Keep in mind, the military never owes you for doing your job and you can't let that mindset get into you or you're in trouble. Easy to do. Remember in the Blue Max, the squadron adjutant to Stockel after they couldn't verify his first aerial kill.."then you have the satisfaction knowing you have served the fatherland..." Nothing can take away who you were or the accomplishments you made Paul and know that your honorable and faithful service is appreciated by many that you may never know.

All the best Chief (for some reason, I thought you had the star!) Again, may you and your family have a happy holiday and better 2010!! Heaven knows, I need a better year.

Tim

Hi Paul,

Yes, and unfortunately it will never change. It all comes down to "who" is in charge and what their philosphy is on awards. That mentality filters down the chain of command and comes down to more politics than anything else. Shame really, but as much as I tried to change it at my level, one person can only do so much; it has to be a fundamental change in award policy for things to actually change at a command level. Even then, it all comes down to your superiors and IF they want to reward/recognize an individual.

For an E-9 in the Navy, typically, the MSM would only be given at retirement if functioning "full time" as a Command Master Chief during that last tour, and then only if the C.O. felt you were doing a good job. On the other hand, I've seen lower ranking personnel get these in other jobs where they interact with 0-6 and above on a daily basis (I/e: Communication stations, Intel related or joint service type positions). It's not right, but it is what it is.

When I was in the Gulf during Desert Storm, the CO(0-6) made a comment to his officers that "no enlisted man was to be recommended for a combat "V" on any award. We watched several, including lower ranking, officers, get a "V" on their Commendation and Achivement Medals and these clowns sat three feet away from everyone else. Just a case in point.

Oh well, doesn't buy a cup of coffee at this point!

Cheers Paul and Happy Holidays my friend!

Tim

Hi Veteran!

Yes, it's a beautiful bar! I would have hated to been the person that had to actually wear it like that or maintain it, but it does look spectacular.

The bad things about medal bars that overlap or have multiple rows atop one another, is that most of the attachments are covered up once mounted. But, alas, it's not a prefect world.

Cheers!

Tim

Below a good Panzer backed Krim(IMO).

I don't know about that shield Peter; I think you should send it to me for "closer inspection"

Tim

Phil,

It should never be a problem asking for opinions on any item prior to purchasing, that's one of the benefits of belonging to a forum IMO. It's when the person asking never seems to even try to learn or research items on their own, or my pet peeve, ask the continual "What's this? Is it real? What's it worth" type questions only to turn around and make a quick buck. I have no time for those guys and usually ignore the threads entirely.

A suggestion, if asking questions or requesting authentication on items currently for sale by a dealer; Leave their name out of it completely. IF you stumble across something that is genuine and rather a good deal, it might not be there when you go back to tell them you want it. This hobby can get cut-throat at times. On the other side of the coin, if the dealer sees his wares being discussed and most of the time the items are given the thumbs down, you could find yourself "out" with that dealer completely, permanently. It's a business to them pure and simple.

Additionally, there are good dealers, bad dealers, and sometimes great dealers, but they all sell "questionable" items from time to time. Nobody gets it right--all the time. Some of these guys have a following and some have their protestors and mentioning the dealer's name can sometimes skew opinions on the items in question. Now, some sell these items not knowing, while others know fully well what they are doing. It all comes down to the buyer doing the research and asking questions first. Bottom line; the item should sell on it's own merits and not the story, the sales write-ups, or dealer's reputation.

I hope you can still get your money back on the those two shields.

Best of luck and welcome to shield collecting!

Tim

Phil,

No worries and please let Peter confirm my thoughts on the Narvik 1st. PM sent on the Kuban and IMO, it's a good one.

Tim